Dimple Dhabalia is the founder of Roots in the Clouds and author of “Tell Me My Story.” A human-centered leadership coach, Dimple is dedicated to normalizing workplace mental health care and healing individual and organizational trauma.
In this episode of the RKD Group: Thinkers podcast, Dimple sits down to discuss her background in the humanitarian sector, how “Ted Lasso” provides valuable leadership lessons and her perspective on building human-centered cultures. Dimple shares:
Justin McCord
Welcome to the RKD Group: Thinkers podcast, the podcast for nonprofit marketers. This is a show about the people who influence nonprofit marketing and fundraising. And, unlike other shows that talk about the craft of fundraising, we focus on the people, the pioneers, the thinkers and diving deep into the inspirations, motivations and, today, some of the timing that brings bright minds to impact work around the nonprofit sector. So Ronnie, why don’t you tell us a little bit about our guest today?
Ronnie Richard
So, our guest today is Dimple Dhabalia, and she's a human-centered leadership coach, founder of Roots in the Clouds, which is her coaching and consulting service. And she has a book out called “Tell Me My Story: Challenging the Narrative of Service Before Self.” What I found interesting was, as we started planning for our episode and looking at some of the things that Dimple was doing, we really saw this synergy.
And I hate that word, so I don't know why I just said it, but just this connection between what we wrote in the “Nonprofit Marketer’s Compass”―one of the pieces was about planning with care and how, as you move forward, you have to take into mind not overly stressing your employees, and trying to avoid burnout and things like that. And Dimple really talks about this, and she really makes a distinction between this idea of burnout, which we talk about. Everyone says, oh, burnout, burnout. And that's, that's really about the specific, you know―you have too much work, and that stresses you out―but there are other forms of what she calls organizational trauma and moral injury and things like that that come into play, especially in the nonprofit sector. So I found that really fascinating in our discussion.
Justin McCord
Yeah, the thing for our listeners, the thing that you're going to see and hear in this episode is how we start to peel back the onion on what burnout means and the emotional intelligence that is incumbent upon us as leaders to navigate this space. And we start with some “Ted Lasso” talk and then move quickly into some things that are, that are deep, and that are meaningful and that are beyond, I think, table stakes, but maybe even should be considered as table stakes for navigating today's environment, especially in the nonprofit space. So, very excited for this conversation. Listen, if you like this episode, be sure to give us a review on whatever platform it is that you're listening or watching. We would certainly appreciate that.
And so, without any further ado, here's Dimple Dhabalia on the RKD Group: Thinkers podcast.
Justin McCord
Alright, Dimple, there are so many things that we wanna unpack with you as a part of this conversation and understand, like, your story. I think you refer to it as your Demp story on your site, right? So we wanna unpack that, but before we get to the full story, I'd really like to unpack, where did the “Ted Lasso” podcast thing come from? Like, how, why, where? Just start there for us.
Dimple Dhabalia
Sure. First of all, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so I got to say, so “Ted Lasso” was pretty funny. I … during the pandemic, when “Ted Lasso” first came out, my sister and brother-in-law were living here with me at my house, and my brother-in-law kept telling us, “You know, there's this new show …" And as soon as we just saw, like, soccer, and we were like, no.
And finally, one night, we decided to sit down and watch, and we were just hooked. And what I found interesting was that as the season progressed―especially because I was doing a lot of work with leaders and a lot, you know, I have a background in applied positive psychology―And so as we were watching the show, I just kept noticing these themes that related to applied positive psychology and definitely leadership. And so one day, as I was getting ready for work, I was thinking about something that was happening with somebody on my team. And I just had this moment where I was like, I wonder, you know, what would Ted Lasso do? And then I was like, oh, I kind of like that. Like, that could be an interesting podcast.
And so, I have a friend who also has a similar background to me, and he and I are very different. So, his whole company is about in the workplace, and I'm definitely more serious and detail-oriented, and I thought, you know, we might make a very interesting pair to talk about these episodes, and so that's kind of how it was born, and we would focus on different themes that I saw coming out of each episode and just be in conversation around it and ...
It was so much fun, but it was also just, it was incredible to look at how they managed to work in so much. You know, like I did so many deep dives on, like, their writers’ room and the books that they had in their writers’ room. And it was incredible to me how they weave this in through storytelling. And I thought it was really, really beautifully done, but the lessons in Lasso leadership―so I actually just got invited to speak at a women's leadership conference this summer because of “Ted Lasso.” So they're having me close out their conference talking about Lasso leadership. And so, I think that this is, it's just such an interesting concept and one that really, actually, mirrors what I've been talking about, whether it's in my book or in the work that I do around human-centered leadership, right? So, it's this idea of basing our leadership on, like, in spaces of empathy and connection with the people around you and, like, seeing the humanity of the people around you.
Yeah, I think “Ted Lasso” does a really phenomenal job of that. So yeah, if people have not heard the podcast, please take a listen. I just found out we're in the top 2% of podcasts. And so that's actually really exciting. So yeah.
Justin McCord
Yeah, you've spent two years on that project, you know, upwards of 40 different episodes. And, and I think it is, as you're alluding to, it's a really interesting way to approach a connection to the human-centered leadership work that you're doing by looking at something that's in the zeitgeist and applying it, right, because it becomes a nice hook for people. So, what has been your, what has been the most impactful takeaway in your time digging into Lasso leadership for you as an individual?
Dimple Dhabalia
Ooh, that's a good question. You know, so one of the things that I loved about the show was just, actually just in the very first episode itself where it's like, the little things, right, that we don't often think about. So, things like remembering people's names. So, in that first episode, we have two instances right away where Ted, you know, is calling people by their first name, and then he's breaking down those barriers of hierarchy. And so with Nate, for example, right out the gate, you know, you know, “What's your name?” And he's like, “What? No one ever asked me what my name is.” And it's that, I think, has really stuck with me. And so, this idea of creating empathy and connection. A lot of times, leaders that I work with, you know, they, they equate empathy with, you know, the squishy feelings.
And I don't have time for that, you know, but I look at empathy as its presence. It's that leadership presence of being in that space with your people so that you don't have to do anything extraordinary, but just be there with them. And so, that was one of my biggest takeaways from the show, that and then, obviously, curiosity over judgment, right? So, this is the other piece I think for leaders, and for me as a leader, especially: leaning into curiosity, especially when you notice your own defenses starting to come up around conversations or fears coming up. So, there's a curiosity for what's happening to me? Why am I reacting this way? Why do I have these thoughts that I'm having, but also curiosity for what the other person is experiencing?
So, a lot of times when we have people who are performing poorly or aren't doing well, to pause and ask, you know, what's happening? Why is this happening? Instead of assuming, because I always say like, people do not wake up in the morning, you know, stretch and say, I'm going to go out into the world today and just be mediocre. Right? Like, most of us genuinely are trying to do our best from one moment to the next. And so, curiosity, I think, is such a powerful tool for leaders and one that I have definitely tried to dive into more, especially after seeing that show.
Ronnie Richard
Dimple, you're talking to two big “Ted Lasso” fans right here. So yeah, we love … and I'll share a side note that I have this remarkable ability to, when I meet someone for the first time and hear their name, their name vanishes out of my brain instantly. So I, if Ted's ability to hold on to a first name and give it right back to somebody, I'm just impressed by that right away.
Dimple Dhabalia
I love that. Same.
Justin McCord
Hey, I just want to, I want to, I want to just acknowledge, and Ronnie, and say that I see you and that you framed it as a remarkable ability that you're, you're, that you're a fridge. You get it as though it's a superpower. And I love that about you. Uh, and, and double, by the way, we, we’re like, as Ronnie mentioned, yes, “Ted Lasso” fans and the psychology behind it, you know ... Even at an employee Halloween event in the last couple of years, Ronnie served as Ted and had the mustache and everything going, and I was Coach Beard. And so yes, you're talking to some Lassoes, I guess. Ted heads, there you go.
Dimple Dhabalia
I love it.
Ronnie Richard
Couple of huge fans, yeah. Yeah, there you go. I wanted to back up earlier in your career, like, just to get a little background on you for our listeners. You spent 20 years or so in the humanitarian sector, but serving in the government, which is a little bit different from many of our listeners who are in the nonprofit space. Can you talk about your work there and share a little bit about what you were doing in the, like, especially in the immigration work and citizenship work?
Dimple Dhabalia
Yeah, absolutely. So, I often talk about how I worked at the crossroads of government and humanitarian sectors because I worked in the federal government for immigration, specifically on asylum and refugee issues. And so as a result, I was in that humanitarian space a lot, whether it was interviewing asylum seekers here in the U.S. or traveling abroad to interview refugees.
And so ... My actual career started out, I went to law school, and I ended up at the attorney general's office in Denver―that's where I was living. And in law school, I had a, you know, like I was really attracted to wanting to work on human rights-related issues, but I didn't know exactly what that would look like in practice. And so, my first job ended up being with the attorney general's office representing the State Department of Human Services. So in that role, I was responsible, I was one of a handful of attorneys that, we were representing the State Department of Human Services and, specifically, the Central Registry for Child Abuse and Neglect. And so, not easy work, right? But it was a good fit for me.
From there, I ended up moving to California, and I worked at a small private firm for literally a few months, and I was like, this is not a good fit for me. And I was looking for other things, and one day I found a posting for an asylum officer position, and it was the last day of the posting, and everything in that description was my dream job. And I was like, this is what I need to be doing.
And so, I sat down to do the application, and I think I hit ‘submit’ at, like, 11:58 p.m. It closed at 11:59, and then I didn't hear anything for months, and I ended up … a few months later, they reached out, and they offered me a job, and it turned out that they were looking for attorneys because they felt like we had the skill sets to adjudicate cases, and it was incredible, and so now I was in a position where I was actually sitting down with asylum seekers every day and bearing witness to their stories of persecution and torture and having to leave behind everything. And it was incredibly humbling and just ... it gave me so much perspective on my own life, right? When I'm hearing these stories about other people and what they've been through.
And through that process, as I kind of moved―so, I was in LA for a couple of years, and then I moved up to San Francisco, the office up there―and so when I got up to San Francisco, I started having opportunities to actually travel out into the field to interview refugees. So, my first trip was to East Africa. I went to Kenya and Ethiopia.
My next trip out was to Thailand along the Thai-Burma border. And with each trip that I took, and you know, there's something so powerful about―and this is something I talk about in my new book―is this idea of sharing our stories with each other and the power of having your story witnessed. And so I was really grateful for that opportunity. But the problem was that, you know, we were trained to be ... to do these interviews, to be non-confrontational, to create these spaces of empathy for the people we were interviewing. But there was never any discussion about, hey, let's look at how this work might impact you. And so, over the course of my career, I started experiencing things like vicarious trauma, and moral injury, and compassion fatigue and eventually burnout. But the vicarious trauma was the first thing for me.
And so, I was on assignment in Zambia, and I think it was 2010. And it was the first time―at that point I'd been doing this work for about six years―and it was the first time where I couldn't control my emotions, so I was sitting in interviews. And this particular trip, we were interviewing the last of the 94 Rwandan genocide survivors, we were interviewing Congolese applicants and we were interviewing what are called protracted Burundians. So, these are people from Burundi who had been in refugee camps, and then their refugee camps were attacked. And so they were kind of refugees twice over. So these are the worst of the worst cases I’ve ever heard. And I had taken a lot of pride over the years in having created what I called a wall of professionalism where I could sit, I could take in the stories, do my job, but this time I couldn’t, and so I'd be crying in the interviews, and then after work, we were going right to the bar at the hotel, and then at night, I couldn't sleep, or if I did, I'd have these horrific nightmares. And so I knew something was wrong. And luckily, when I was at the attorney general's office, the boss I had there, he recognized that the work we were doing at that time could have an impact. And so he made us go through these annual vicarious trauma trainings.
And I remember as, like, a young attorney, I was super cocky, and I was like, I don't need this. I can do this work. You know, I don't need this. And it was literally, you know … so a decade had passed since that. And I was like, okay, I think this is what I'm experiencing. But what I also realized through that process was, number one, nobody was talking about it. So for a long time, I felt a lot of shame, and I felt like there was something wrong with me. And I also realized that my organization was not resourced to support me.
And so that was where I really started, kind of, advocating from within. So after I got over, kind of, my own feelings around it, I realized I can't be the only one going through this. And so I really started advocating from within, and I started creating programs where we, you know, are talking about the mental health challenges that are realistic to this work and trying to, kind of, remove the stigma around it.
So that's kind of how, you know, the last five years of my career in the government―I kind of pivoted from within the organization and was really focused full time on workforce mental health and well-being. And it was incredible because, again, nobody was talking about this. And so, to now have somebody putting, giving voice to what people were experiencing really made an impact. And I think ...You know, that's my hope is that we start to see that more across these different industries because people are suffering, but we've just been conditioned for so long to shove it all down and try to compartmentalize ourselves, which just isn't a realistic way of being.
Justin McCord
We've explored parts of this. We've explored emotional intelligence as a facet of leadership, especially for nonprofit and NGO leaders navigating change over the last couple of years. We have also explored some of the elements of compassion fatigue, which you mentioned. We have not explored, you know, the vicarious trauma and moral injury. And so, I would love for you to unpack that a little bit. And also share with us, Dimple, as you started to understand what you were experiencing, what were some of the tools, resources or steps that helped you navigate those pieces to get to the place of realizing that you wanted to help others?
Dimple Dhabalia
Yeah, absolutely. So, I think one of the things that drives me nuts when I look at what's showing up in the media is oftentimes everything is lumped under ‘burnout.’ And I think burnout is very prevalent, especially in these kind of human-centered jobs that we do where we are serving humanity in some way. So I keep saying, like, being human is messy, serving humanity is messier. And so I ...
Justin McCord
That's a great line, by the way. That's a great line.
Dimple Dhabalia
And so, I think that there is this idea that, oh, everyone's burned out, but I don't think that people are just burned out, right? And so for me, a lot of this, it's about diving deeper to actually create distinctions between what people are experiencing. And so, vicarious trauma is really, it's the experience of where you are exposed to other people's trauma and you start experiencing the impact of that. So, it's as though you experienced the trauma yourself.
And so a lot of times this is lumped in with secondary traumatic stress. People use those terms interchangeably. They're very similar, but the difference is that vicarious trauma happens over a period of time. So, it's where you're exposed over and over. Whereas secondary traumatic stress can happen as just coming out of one incident. And then the symptoms of that are very, again, like where you … are like what I experienced in Zambia, right? Like not able to sleep, or I'm, you know, diving into alcohol a lot more or―and the biggest thing is the inability to connect deeply with other people because, again, this is very isolating. It's very shame-inducing.
And so, we start to think we're the only one experiencing this because we see other people around us who are, who seem to be managing, but people, there's a lot of different reasons why some people get hit harder than others. And then there's this idea of compassion fatigue. And so, compassion fatigue is, it's like a combination of physical, emotional and spiritual depletion. And it's specific to caring for others, especially when the other people are in significant pain and distress.
So, I like to think of it as, you know, we've heard that analogy of the cup being empty, right? It's that point at which you just have nothing else to give to another person. That's really what compassion fatigue is. And then the one that I spend a lot of time with these days is moral injury.
And so, moral injury is interesting because it was actually a term that was coined back in the ‘70s, I think. And it was related to soldiers who were coming back from war. And so, if you think about it―and the basic premise of moral injury is that you've been asked to do something that violates your own deeply held morals and beliefs―and so, it makes perfect sense in the context of war, right? But what I've noticed is for me, for example, I think that the … well, I'll go back.
So, this definitely has started to gain momentum in the medical community post -COVID because when you look at what doctors and nurses were asked to do during COVID in terms of decisions that they had to make, choices they had to make, there was definitely a lot of moral injury and moral distress happening in medical communities.
So, burnout, again, is this kind of umbrella term everybody uses, but burnout is actually very specific, right? It's a form of occupational trauma, and I call all of these occupational traumas that's specific to prolonged physical and psychological exhaustion related to our work. And so, a lot of this probably does fall in the realm of burnout, but I'd say it's like burnout plus, right? So, there's additional things happening that go beyond just traditional burnout. And one of the things that makes me laugh is just, you know, especially post-COVID, we saw a lot of organizations who felt like they had no choice now and so started offering things like, you know, we're gonna give you a mindfulness day, or we're giving you an extra day off, and I'm like, that's not gonna help at this point. Like, that is putting a Band-Aid on a broken arm. And it's really about, like, we have to go back and address root issues and help people to heal in order to really create sustainable cultures.
Justin McCord
The thing that I'm struck with as you're sharing your story, Dimple, and your mindset, of which we're super appreciative, is the color, and dimension and wrinkles underneath things that are umbrella terms, like ‘stress’ or like ‘burnout.’ And when you put yourself in a position to understand the dimensions, I think you can understand it better. And as you said, this is a time and a space that requires that type of whole leadership in order to help just navigate the ongoing uncertainties around us and persistent change. And so, we appreciate that.
Dimple Dhabalia
And I would add … thank you, I really appreciate that too … and I would add a willingness to acknowledge trauma because I think trauma is, like, this kind of bad word for a lot of organizations, right? But it's interesting because I think as a culture, we wear stressed like a badge of honor, right? Like, “Oh, I'm so busy, I'm so stressed out.” But as soon as the word ‘trauma’ comes up, people are like, “Oh, no, no, no, I don't have trauma, I'm not traumatized,” you know?
But trauma is, as you all must be maybe aware, like, trauma … actually, there's big-T trauma and little-T trauma. And so, understanding that, we don't have to go through these big-T traumas of natural disasters, or a pandemic or some kind of life-threatening situation. And in fact, it's these little-T traumas, right?
So, things like poverty and chronic abuse, discrimination, race-based traumatic stress, subtle acts of exclusion or microaggressions, these things that―and harassment in the workplace―like, these things that build up over time are also trauma; they're forms of trauma that need to be addressed. And so, you know, when we think about equity, inclusion, belonging conversations, these, like, check off the box, let's just do a training doesn't work because these kinds of traumas have been so deeply ingrained in our cultures. And so, I talk a lot about organizational trauma. So, a lot of people don't realize that just like we as human beings can be wounded in some way, so too can the systems within which we operate.
And it makes sense, right? Because we are all bringing in ... we're carrying in whatever it is, the lens through which we experience the world, which has been formed as a result of our experiences in the world. And so, the systems that we're building, a lot of times people are like, oh, the systems are broken, systems are broken. Systems are not broken. They are doing exactly what they were designed to do by the people who designed them, right? And so, that's the stuff that we need to heal, and that's what we need to change.
And that takes acknowledging, like, there are these traumas that have been baked into our culture, and we need to address them, we need to acknowledge them, we need to heal them in order to then build something that's actually going to be stronger and going to be able to sustain through the different challenges and uncertainties that are, you know, they're always coming up.
Ronnie Richard
I like the way you pointed out that just the word ‘trauma’ itself, it's a sensitive word for some people, and the idea of them having trauma is very different from talking about burnout or talking about mental health even. And we've seen a lot of progress, maybe in the last five years, where mental health is a subject that's becoming a little bit more open to talk about and is not as taboo, but even going further, that idea of trauma is still a little bit, still taboo and a little misunderstood.
I'm curious, you switched out of the government role into your, starting your consulting and coaching business in 2021. Is there a significance to that coming with the pandemic and the, all the different traumas that that brought? On a whole variety of levels for people. Was there something that sparked you to say, I want to do this now in this moment?
Dimple Dhabalia
Yes, well, so what happened was literally two weeks before the world shut down, I had launched a new leadership program in my agency. And it was one of the, I think the first that was based in mindful performance and positive psychology. And so it was … and it was different from most leadership programs because it was very self-focused. And so, it was actually really funny to, like, bring in this pilot group of 32 leaders and, and like, there, there was definitely some discomfort about how much attention they had to pay to themselves, and their own thoughts and their own, you know, mind-body reactions to things. But what was interesting is, by day three, they, we noticed a shift happening.
By day five, people were excited to get back to their teams and start putting some of the things they had learned into practice. And so that … we had brought everyone into D.C. And then two weeks later, the world shut down. And what was fascinating was that these people who went, these leaders who went through this program had these new tools that they could use. And the biggest one being this idea of presence and creating empathy, creating trust and connection on their teams, creating psychological safety on their teams. And we were measuring along the way. So every few months we were doing 360 surveys for their teams to see, you know, like, how was this leader doing? How was it impacting the team?
And we had actual hard data about the fact that the people who went through this program, the leaders who went through this program, their teams made it through the pandemic actually as a tight-knit group that was supporting each other, that was able to, like, get their work done, that was able to, you know, like, to adapt to the situation as it was unfolding. Whereas everyone else was really, really struggling.
And then the companion piece to this was my little team. We recognized right away, you know, that a lot of people are struggling and we're not talking about it. So we started offering―one of the things I talk about in the book is this idea of story-healing circles or story circles. And so, we started offering something called coffee chats, and they were just these small groups, no more than 12 people. And there was always a facilitator, and it was an opportunity for people to come together. And so, at the beginning of the pandemic, we were talking about things like anxiety. We were talking about things like the challenges of homeschooling when you're trying to work. We were talking about how the fear and uncertainty was impacting people's mental health. Things that you don't normally, kind of, talk about in the workplace. And what we found is it was helping people because, number one, they were connecting with others. So there was that feeling of common humanity. They weren't the only ones experiencing this, and they were able to connect with people in offices they might not normally have connected with because everyone's spread out and that kind of thing. And so, as we kind of went through this process, we were collecting information and looking at how things were impacting.
And in 2021, I was sitting in a meeting, and we were presenting our findings, and there was, and it was hard because we have those virtual meetings where you're talking to a bunch of boxes because nobody will turn on their cameras. And it was all leaders in our organization. And it was, number one, it was cricket. And then it was the only comment that was made was, I can't believe we're still allocating resources towards things like this that don't contribute to meeting the mission. And I remember sitting back and I was like, okay. If you can't see how the health and well-being of your workers contributes to meeting the mission, I don't know what else I can do at this point from within here.
So that was really the piece that made me stop and decide, like, I can't do this anymore. And it was interesting timing because as soon as I left, you know, the pandemic was still going on. There was still a lot happening in this world of mental health, and it took me a little bit of time. And so, that's why, like, I really appreciated “Ted Lasso” because it gave me that opportunity to start talking about some of these things as I was working it out for myself, to figure out, like, well, how do I want to approach this? And then that kind of led me into writing the book and, and, and putting things out that way.
And so it's, it's been an interesting kind of journey, but it really came down to, despite having like, hard numbers to share, we had, you know, the mindset of leadership was still so entrenched in just metrics, metrics, metrics. And that's one of the things that I talk about is we have to start shifting from purely metrics-based cultures into human-centered ones because this new generation that's coming up, they are not, they're not here for the metrics.
And there used to be a time where, you know, whether it's in the nonprofit world or whether it's in the type of work I was doing, this belief that, you know, if you want to leave, that's fine. We've got five other people here who would be happy to have your job. And the reality is that bench is not so deep anymore. And so, you know―and also, I talk about the business case a lot, right? So, you talk about things like return on investment. I would like to believe that organizations would do all of this because it's the right thing to do. They would provide this holistic, human-centered duty of care because it's the right thing to do.
But there is a business case for it, which is that organizations are spending so much money in hiring people and training people. And when you have a revolving door where people aren't even staying a full year, number one, you're not getting a return on your investment. But even bigger than that, you're not building institutional knowledge.
And I think institutional knowledge isn't one of those things that you can measure in a metric, but it's so valuable because when you think about jobs that involve serving other people, there's an element of confidence that needs to be there to make decisions. And if you haven't been doing this job very long, you're not gonna have that confidence. And so, when people hit the two- and three-year mark, that's where they start to feel like, yeah, I can make these decisions. That's where we have those natural efficiencies start to come in. And so, if we're not positioning ourselves to create, you know, where we're actually holding on to employees, retention, it's problematic because it's impacting your business more than you realize it, you know.
Justin McCord
Dimple ... it's such good stuff. And it's, you know, we are big believers in progressing through the world right now requires both the inspiration to do something different and the adaptation, the everyday small steps that you take in fulfilling that new thing. And we believe that that is incredibly applicable to those who are in the nonprofit and NGO space. And, and in other spaces, right? Not limited to that space. And so, the work that you're doing, being part self-actualization and part driven by, you know, other pieces of timing, is hitting at just the right time.
And so, we want to edify you in that and let our listeners know, as we wrap our conversation today, Dimple's book, “Tell Me My Story: Challenging the Narrative of Service Before Self” is available both on her website, which is rootsinthecloud.com, and on Amazon. So you can get it there. It is out now, and I can't wait to dive into it. Dimple, as we're wrapping up, if folks want to learn more about you, your work, talk to you about some leadership coaching and other things, how can they get in touch with you?
Dimple Dhabalia
Thank you so much. You can reach me at rootsintheclouds.com, and that's plural, clouds. And then I'm at DimStory across all major social media platforms. And I will say, the book is available across all major online retailers, not just Amazon. So yeah, you can find it pretty much everywhere at this point. So yeah, thank you so much again for having me too. It's always fun. Great to talk about these things.
Justin McCord
Oh my goodness, like, this is, yeah, it's timing is everything, right? And so, we appreciate the work that you're doing. We want you to know that.
Dimple Dhabalia
Thank you, thank you, and likewise.