The road ahead for nonprofit fundraisers is paved with uncertainty—with inflation and a potential recession at the forefront. In this series of Group Thinkers episodes, we're sitting down with guests who have a unique perspective on our current landscape and who can share how nonprofits should be preparing in the coming months.
On this episode, we sit down with Jim Pacey, President and CEO of Pacey Consulting & Coaching, to discuss what emotional intelligence is and how nonprofit leaders can use it to navigate uncertainty. Tune in as we cover:
President and CEO, Pacey Consulting & Coaching
“Truthfully, there’s always uncertainty. We never know how things are going to go … and I think we got a little complacent over the years in that things become predictable … We have to manage ourselves first in being OK with what’s happening and being positive about how we’re going to move forward to find the answers that we need to create positive results for the organization.”
Justin McCord: Ronnie, would you rather be a scientist or a judge?
Ronnie Richard: Wow, tough question. Right out of the gate. Scientist or a judge? I'll go with a scientist. I like ... I'll study things, present the findings, and let everyone else judge.
Justin: You just like wearing lab coats. Let's be honest, you’ve got a huge collection. You've got a closet full of lab coats, and you didn't want to talk about it. But we're forcing the issue.
Ronnie: It's true. I can't … I can't deny that.
Justin: It's a safe space. You know, up until our guest today referenced the scientist versus judge idea, up until that moment, I probably would have said, judge. Now I'm rethinking everything. And so, we'll see where the conversation goes today.
So, welcome everyone to Group Thinkers, the podcast from RKD Group. I'm your host, Justin McCord. With me, as always, is Ronnie Richard, the scientist-in-training. And so, we've got, we've got a great episode today, a very interesting conversation, as you all know. What we do on the show is that we try and take one aspect of the nonprofit marketing landscape and really go deep into that and have someone join us to talk about something that's either new, innovative, fresh, or different in that space.
And so, we're turning that dimension just a little bit today through the series of conversations that we've been having over the last few weeks, last few episodes, which is all around uncertainty. And so, when Ronnie and I were thinking about the uncertainties that are around us, from inflation to recession to the heels of the pandemic, to all of the challenges that we're seeing in direct response right now of rising cost, maybe change in response, longer lead times, all of those things that are challenging our norms, one of the things that we talked about was, can we just find someone to help us unpack the idea of uncertainty?
Like, we don't want to talk about marketing for a second. We want to, we almost want to find a therapist. We want to talk about the idea of uncertainty. So, we found someone who is, I'm going to say, Jim, that you’re therapist adjacent. And so, Jim, welcome to the show. How are things in Austin today?
Jim Pacey: You know, just as normal, and in a summertime in Austin, it's hot, hot and hot, and we need some rain. So, if you guys have some up there, send it down this way. We really need it. We're hanging on the thread of a 20% chance of rain. So, we're hopeful of that tomorrow. But other than that, things are good here, you know. Things continue to move forward. And you know, Austin's always been a good home to me. So, today is no different.
Justin: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, if it does happen to rain in the Dallas area, we'd probably soak it all up. And then, you know, go through the full cycle and maybe, maybe get down to you.
So, so what's interesting, Ronnie, you know, about Jim is that, you know, he's got ties to the nonprofit space types, ties to executive coaching, ties to consulting, but is an expert in an area that we wanted to dive into in terms of understanding uncertainty, and that's emotional intelligence. And so, for our audience, what drew us to Jim was a course that he teaches, along with Dr. Kirsten Bradberry at the University of Texas, that's called “Emotional Intelligence for Leaders.” So, before we talk about this course and talk about emotional intelligence and how that relates to uncertainty, Jim, tell us about your long and winding road that got you into this space. And those Central Texas hills that your journey is taking you on.
Jim: Yeah, that's it. It's an interesting … and it does go back a few years, by the way. So, but I started with The Y in 1979 in Houston, and I think my career has been … especially in The Y, professional staff are expected to raise money almost from day one. So it's always been about fundraising. Fortunately, though, I didn't stay in Houston too long. I came to Austin in 1986, moved down to St. Louis, then Seattle, had different experiences there. And just about every stop other than St. Louis, I started a new YMCA from scratch, and that was all grassroots kind of stuff. I came back to Austin in 1997 and actually was the executive director of the YMCA that I had started many years before that, my first stop in Austin. And so, that was really a unique experience, and we were really focused on raising funds, along with the operations at the time. So eventually, they asked me to become the Vice President of Development. So that meant I was all about fundraising and then moved on to Vice President of Operations for the YMCA of Austin.
In the meantime, along the way, I was asked by the YMCA of the USA, which is the National Office, to become a trainer. And the training was leading in coaching others, and the basis of that was in emotional intelligence. And that's really where I got my first bath, I would say, in emotional intelligence and trying to understand it and going, wow, that's a lot of what I do. And I didn't even know that it fit into some sort of category. It's just relationships were so important to me along the way. And so, I left The Y almost five years ago, four-and-a-half years ago. And, and at the time when I left there, I knew I wanted to do some consulting work. And one of the things I wanted to do was to write some leadership courses because I thought it had so much value from my time with The Y.
And so, one of them was an emotional intelligence course, which I was able to do at Austin Community College for a little bit. And a friend of mine told me about UT and the human dimensions of organizations, which is where we ended up, what you talked about earlier, the class I teach. And they teamed up with, they kind of sent it around and teamed me up with Dr. Bradberry, and what a joy that was! She latched on to it right away. It's changed quite a bit from what I probably first showed her. But in the end, we've probably done nine of these sessions. We'll continue to do one every semester. And so, that's kind of where we ended up at UT Austin.
We're hopeful to do a second one that we're really trying to work on now, on decision making, but it still is all based off of emotional intelligence, and Dr. Bradbury's an amazing woman, and she brings in the education and research. I bring in a lot of the practical experience over the 38 years in The Y. So that's in a nutshell, maybe a little longer than you wanted, but, you know, you can edit that out if you need to.
Justin: Right, you know, what we find interesting about, you know, hearing people's journeys is that, I mean, it's cliche, but the journey is important. And so, each of those stops along the way at The Y, each one of them, they helped form what you're doing today. I think that that's important for us as leaders to remember on the days, whenever it's hard days, and on the days to wherever it’s, you know, easy days or days where you celebrate, that each one of those moments, they really do kind of form and refine you in the way that you lead. And so, your journey is, it's impressive and one that we're proud to get to shine a light on and be able to talk to you about your current area of expertise.
So, help me with this. What is emotional intelligence? What the heck is it anyway?
Jim: That's an interesting question, isn't it? And it depends, not so much on who you talk to, you kind of get a little different answer. Peter Salvoy, who is the President at Yale University, was a psychology professor, and he coined the term, and after, he came up with the first research and test on the importance of emotional intelligence in people. But what is it?
Well, it's recognizing, understanding and managing our own emotions and recognizing, understanding and trying to influence the emotions of others. So, in a nutshell, it's emotions, right? We can't deny them. They're here with us. How do we use those for our benefit and for others’ benefit as well? And so, we can impact people positively and negatively with our emotions. But the main thing is, how do we work with those? And how do we make it a positive experience for everybody, and how do we help others work through their own emotions once we recognize them? But, you know, if you read anything from Daniel Goleman, who kind of made it more main line, he says that the most important piece of this is self-awareness.
Do we know what we're feeling when we feel it? Do we know what our emotion is at the time? How do we work through that? Because once we're aware of it now, we can do something with it. It's kind of like when you go to the doctor's office and get hit in the knee, it's kind of hard to stop that reaction. But once it's hit and the reaction stops, now there's something you can do about it, potentially. So, I just look at emotions as well. It's really hard to stop them, but once they're there, and once we realize that we can do something with that, we can manage that a little better. Does that make sense?
Justin: No, it totally makes sense. It's appropriate as we've been talking through, not only, you know, this current series around uncertainty, but teasing ahead to some research that we're going to be publishing, which is all about feelings. Feelings can be yucky work. They can be hard work. And so, you know, being in tune with not only your own feelings, but also being in tune and aware of the feelings and the emotional state of those around you. And that's double, if not triple hard work. And so, but clearly an immensely powerful practice. And so, I started to apply this, and I can easily apply this into relationships, right? I can think about myself and my wife and how that makes sense. Then put this into the context of leaders in the workplace and draw from your own experiences. But how does this play out?
Jim: Yeah, it plays out on a day-to-day basis. I mean, you know, we can talk for hours and hours about culture at the workplace and how important that is, and emotional intelligence plays into that. So, well, because you have to create what Simon Sinek calls the circle of safety, that people feel safe in their work environment, they're going to really perform well and they're going to know their place. They're going to know they're valued. Because as a leader, we have to show that emotional intelligence and empathy around the emotions that come up.
Now, I think one of the more important things that I really rely on is going back, going and looking at Marc Brackett’s work, who happens to be the Director for the Center of Emotional Intelligence at Yale University. He has this mood meter that allows us to come up with 120, 100 or 120 different words for the emotions we may be feeling. And they're not about positive and negative emotions. They're more about lower and higher energy type. So, he doesn't put a label like that on it. He puts it low, high energy. But it's really important that we can put a label on that when we're feeling it because it's really difficult otherwise. You know, what do we say? Well, I go back to my early college days, and it was mad, flat, sad and frightened. Those were the four emotions and feelings we had. Everything could be put into that. But Mark says, no, there's a lot more to it. And that's much more nuanced than that. And so, understanding those nuances is really important on the empathy side, that we understand that people are going to have reactions to uncertainty, to change, because that's what we're seeing so much of today.
So, the importance of emotional intelligence today is probably more so than it was four years ago, before the pandemic hit, because there are so many different things that we're encountering on a day-by-day basis. And now the newest thing, right, monkeypox. What are we going to do with that one? You know, it seems like everything just keeps coming around now.
So, I don't, I don't know that this is going to go away for a while. We really have to deal with it. And the importance of understanding our emotions and those of others becomes critical.
Ronnie: Jim, you kind of mentioned the last few years and all the things we've gone through, thinking about that and through this framework of emotional intelligence, one of the big changes we've seen is this shift to remote work or hybrid work where people are working from home all the time. When you think about that and you think about a leader trying to gauge and understand their employees and stay connected to them, how much of a challenge does that become with remote work, and how do you navigate that as a leader?
Jim: That's a great question, Ronnie. I think, you know, fortunately, I've been out of work for the last four years, so I don't know what that's like personally. But I can tell you that the way in which I look at that is that culture has to be really strong and in place. Once the pandemic hit it, it would be really hard to create a new culture when you don't have it already. So that becomes really hard work because now you don't see everybody every day.
You know, it used to be management by walking around. Well, there wasn't really the walking around, but applying that same principle. How do you walk around in a hybrid situation? You have to be in touch with people all the time. You have to make sure that you have team meetings and via Zoom is very difficult. You know, sometimes people turn their cameras off, sometimes they're not even in the room, you know, you just don't know. And so, creating, now that we're out of that space and we're more into kind of a we can get together from time to time, now it becomes a little bit easier, I think, to maintain that culture and presence.
But Ronnie, the question is, how do you, how do you deal with that? Well, I've talked to a couple of friends of mine that run their businesses. And what they've done to make sure that they're in touch with their people is that everyone's got to be in the office on a Tuesday. We're going to have our meetings, and we're going to make sure that we touch base and we're in touch with each other. So, in that sense, it works for them that a Tuesday is when that culture really is set for the rest of the week, and they can touch base with themselves. They know that there's a time to talk to folks.
But, you know, I watched my wife work with the state of Texas, and she was a manager of about seven people. And just trying to stay on top of that was, during the Zoom calls, was really interesting. You know, she struggled with some of them. She did really well with others. But I think it becomes a sense of how well do you know that person? How well can you talk to them, and how well can you bring up those difficult conversations when things aren't either going well or things aren't being done?
And Ronnie, if you and I were having that type of discussion, I have to know how you're going to take that. I have to anticipate that a little bit so that I can work with you. Because if I say something a little critical, how are you going to take that? I've got to be way, way ahead of that. I got to be kind of playing chess on that a little bit to make sure that I know what the possible reactions are. Emotional intelligence is really anticipation a lot of times, but at the same time, being present with what's really happening and not getting too far ahead of yourself. Does that help?
Justin: There's so many thoughts that are in feelings, Jim, that are going through my mind. So, so just to draw up something that you just said and to put a really bad sports analogy on it, you know, you talk about both anticipation and being present. And so, you know, I was a basketball player in high school. I wasn't a great basketball player, but I was a point guard. Really, the role of the point guard is both to be present and to anticipate, right? And so, there is something about being able to be aware in the moment and also know what's coming next, so that you can influence and direct what's coming next.
And Ronnie, I love your question there about the hybrid work environment that many organizations, nonprofits and those that work with nonprofits have entered into. Because, you know, the ever-present video call can be transactional. And so, you know, interpreting what Jim's sharing, it's almost like even in the midst of what could be a transactional interaction, you've got to work extra hard to be both present and anticipatory so that you can continue to lead. Am I, am I pulling on some of the cords, Jim?
Jim: Yeah, no question about it. I think the other anticipation is, you know, in many cases, when we're in the presence of others, we can tell what's going on with them through body language, right, by watching that. So, if the camera's off, or they're not really being expressive with that, we have to dig a little deeper. And so, video on the one hand makes it so much easier. We don't have to travel as much, or we don't have to all be in the same room to do that. On the other hand, it can make it a little more difficult in terms of reading other people. And that is part of what emotional intelligence tells you to do, is to try and read those other things.
But again, Justin, we go back to that, are we a judge or are we a scientist, in that and understanding that we still have to ask a lot of questions? You know, sitting here, I could say, hey, Ronnie, what's going on with you? You know, what are you feeling right now? Those are the types of questions that hopefully can draw some of that out. And so, that instead of asking the question, “Hey, how's it going today?” And you say, “I'm OK,” you want to dig a little deeper by asking the right questions? What are you feeling right now? That's a different kind of question that we can answer. We just have to find the right ones to draw people out a little bit more.
Ronnie: And it's about being intentional too, like I mean, you have to have these meetings and have the conversations and the check-ins repeatedly. So then, when it comes to those difficult conversations or those challenging ones, you’ve built up this culture that you’ve spoken about, you’ve built up this rapport with the employees as well, right?
Jim: Right, and, you know, and it becomes, hey, we're all in this together. I mean, we've got to figure this out. And so, how do we do this together? And everyone becomes part of the solution, although there are times where it's one on one, it's still the team is at risk, right, you know, we've got to figure that out. So I, yeah, it's all about intention, Ronnie. I mean, if you're intentional about what you want out of that meeting and you're open to what comes up during the course of it, then nine times out of ten, you're going to get to the intentional part, or you're going to regroup and go, OK, that didn't work. We're going to try something else, or I'm going to try something else that didn't work and maybe touch in with a few people. We'll find out how’d that come across, or what did I miss on that?
Justin: We're in a time where we are emerging in a post-pandemic space, kind of, as you said, we're getting back together, or some folks are able to meet now in person. We've had some of our industry events take place in person, which have been like family reunions in a lot of ways. I mean, just being together, the excitement and the energy that comes out of that.
That said, we also … I was having a conversation just this week with a peer who has said that, you know, this year has been one of the most challenging years for them professionally because of the number and weight of challenge after challenge after challenge that they’ve faced. And looking ahead in a business where we love to be able to forecast with precision what's going to happen, right? That we've got this great uncertainty that we still have sitting on our shoulders. So Jim, can you talk about how emotional intelligence helps leaders handle uncertainty?
Jim: Sure, you know, that goes to ... I do some meditation as well. And mindfulness is all about being present and accepting what's there. So, trying to deal with uncertainty, it's kind of like, typically it's something that we wish wasn't there. The uncertainty usually means that we're not sure of the direction. We're not sure of how we respond in those situations instead of just accepting how it is.
And so, I think emotional intelligence plays a part in that. And hey, what am I feeling? What are my emotions? What am I feeling at the moment? How do I get through this? How do I manage that? And if I'm a leader, how do I manage that with my team?
And so, the uncertainty is that truthfully, there's always uncertainty. We never know how things are going to go. We never know what the right, the next thing is going to happen. And I think we've gotten, we got a little complacent over the years that things become predictable.
We can say with some, some certainty that certain things were going to take place year after year. And in your work, as you guys look at fundraising and the results from that, and the research from that, there were things that we could rely on year after year, right? I know that we relied on there were a certain percentage of people that were going to come back and give to us as long as they were asked, right? And there were a certain percentage that just weren't. But we knew that. Today, I have no idea how fundraisers are looking at this. I think it's really up in the air.
So, I think, I think we have to manage ourselves first and be OK with what's happening and be positive about how we're going to move forward to find the answers that we need to, to create positive results for the organization or for ourselves and for our team.
Ronnie: Well, I will say the one thing is that today, we do have a lot more data to work with that, that brings a certain angle of certainty.
Jim: Maybe, not necessarily. It at least gives some numbers, and those are important pieces. It all goes into how you approach your work in terms of, you know, that creates the backdrop, right? We know that this has happened over the years. How do we predict the future? We look at the past. You know, that's our best way to look at what the future holds, so yeah.
Ronnie: So Jim, in thinking about putting on your fundraising cap, once again, you're back at The Y. You're trying to raise money, and you're in this environment right now. How would you, with your knowledge of emotional intelligence today, how would you counsel, how would you advise YMCA Jim on what to do? Because we often tell our clients, don't make rash decisions, you know, stay the course, stay in market, things like that. And in a way, that's the emotional intelligence of, don't worry about the challenges ahead, like, focus on your staying the course. What would you, what advice would you give to fundraisers today?
Jim: Yeah, I think it's still all about relationships. It's the importance of relationships. And what we look at that now, given that more and more people are probably giving online and less, there's less interaction per se person to person, that's still going to be important. And how do you create that relationship between even the smallest amount that's given with the people there? Because the whole idea was always to move those people up somehow. How do we move? How do we move them from a $25 gift to a $50 gift next year? Or a $100 gift? But that's all about relationships and where we spend our time.
What I think is going to be, or is, the issue at hand is how do we do that? Because we only have so many hours in the day, and we only have so many people on our team. Now, how do we break that up? I mean, how do we figure out who is most important to really connect with? Make sure that we have a solid relationship with. And really find what their connection is with the organization if they've never given before, especially. So that data becomes really important, you know, why do they give? What caused them to give this time around becomes, like, critical. So, the work that you guys are doing within that becomes a critical piece to how people, how I would say, hey, Jim, this is what you need to look at.
But don't forget that the relationships you have and the uncertainty around the emotions on how the team moves, moves forward with it is going to be critical, too. So, understanding that and going, OK, we, we're all in this together. How do we make sure that we make headway in this? How do we raise the best amount of money with the efforts that we have and the time that we have to make that happen.
So, being in touch with kind of managing and calming our own emotions because there's uncertainty. I mean, you know, it's like anything else, it's just that the pandemic has really brought forward those emotions and those ... that uncertainty all more in the last few years than we've ever seen in, what, since the early 1900s with a pandemic. So, and I have no idea what fundraising was like back then, but we know what it is like now, and we know it's changed. And how do we make that work for us down the road?
Justin: Yeah, I think, you know, just reflecting on some of the things, Jim, that we've heard from you, the idea of understanding your emotions, right? Understand them, but don't let them control you, right?. That's an internal balance that can be challenging. And so, maybe that's a part of that leadership dynamic is the maturity and the wherewithal and the presence to navigate that in the middle of a difficult conversation or a difficult season, yeah?
Jim: Right. It's, you know, it's how many times have we driven down the road and got cut off by someone? And that emotion just floods, like, you so-and-so. Why do you do that now? We have an opportunity after that takes place to kind of control a little bit and go, all right, you know, I've probably done the same thing or something almost as bad. Now, how do I control that a little bit? Because we're all humans in this, right? So let's not get too worked up about what's happening presently. Let's look at how we make sure that we succeed in the future, and how we manage our emotions is going to be really critical to that because if we become defeated, we've lost the race. And if we become too excited, we will miss out on things that we should have been paying attention to.
So, there is that healthy balance between the two. Don't get too excited and don't get too defeated. I had a boss one time tell me, don't fall in love with a project. And what he meant to say was, don't get too overexcited about something. At the same time, I would say, don't get too defeated when you have a few things that don't go your way. Try and work through it and figure out, hey, something else is around the corner. We'll figure this one out.
Justin: I'm going to try and apply this to a fundraising example from 100 years ago, Jim, because you challenged me. I think amongst fundraising lore, my favorite incident or story is of Joseph Pulitzer. And Pulitzer in 1885, somewhere around there, crafting an article and appealing to the citizens who were reading the New York World to just give a penny. Right? And to help raise money so that they could build the pedestal that the Statue of Liberty sits on today.
It was an emotional appeal, and it was something that was both emotional and rational. It used amazing direct response techniques, and it produced. They raised a couple thousand dollars that was needed to be able to then fund the building of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty.
Why I love that example is that, you know, I do nerd out about all the direct response elements of it and the nonprofit marketing elements and the peer-to-peer elements of people bringing it in. But what I really love is that Pulitzer stepped up and used his gifts and abilities in a way that impacted not just his community but those that came after him. Right? Building for a legacy and thinking about that going forward.
And so, maybe, in some ways some of the foundational strengths of both emotional intelligence and fundraising haven't changed in the last 120 years.
Jim: Yeah, I would guess that you are exactly right. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are a lot of things that we can learn from those types of appeals you know, and you know, I talked earlier about the importance of relationships and how that plays out. And I think one of the things that I've learned over the years is to not make a lot of expectations and not necessarily go in with an agenda with someone, rather just find out what they really want.
So those one-on-one things are … those one-on-one meetings are really important in terms of don't go in there with an expectation that you're going to ask for $1,000,000, rather, find out what they're really excited about, what excites them, and see how your organization might fit in to that.
Gerald Parnassus was a fundraiser that I followed for a long time, and I just was, he was one of those that the YMCAs across the country would ask to try and help them raise significant capital dollars. And he rarely asked for a number from someone, he really asked for a gift because in the end they were asking him if they could make a gift because the way he explained it was just amazing.
So, the relationships that we build are really important, and sometimes it's best not to have an agenda with it. Sometimes it's best just to make the ask or just lay it out there and say, you know, we're looking for people. If you know of anyone that could help us, that'd be great. Or if it fits with you, I can give you more information, and let them make the ask themselves, which is, wow, that is a … I was able to actually utilize that a few times late in my career. And it was astounding how effective it was.
Justin: Listening might be our greatest weapon, huh? I mean, it's just ...
Jim: Listening is one of the most important pieces of emotional intelligence, in fact. And in most of what we talk about, especially in the coaching world, talk 25% of the time, listen 75% of the time. And that is true in fundraising as well. You ask the right questions, you can do a lot of listening.
Justin: That's good stuff, man. That's good stuff. We, we really appreciate you sharing your expertise. I'm … Jim’s been so kind to give us a handout that we can make available to our listeners. And so, you know, it gives you a snapshot of some of the elements of emotional intelligence. And so, without all the context. So if you drop a note to podcast@rkdgroup.com, we can hook you up with that. Jim, just in terms of closing. If folks want to find out more about your and Dr. Bradbury's work, how do they get in touch with you? Where do they find you? How can they reach out to you?
Jim: Sure, yeah. You can look up University of Texas, Human Dimensions of Organizations for all the trainings. They do a great job, a wide range of trainings there. So, and you can find us on there. I'm sure we're scheduled sometime in October, and I can't remember the exact date, but we're in there at some point. And that will give you a snapshot of the class as well.
You can find me at paceyconsulting.com. I'm on LinkedIn at Jim Pacey, you can find me on, I'm also on Facebook and Instagram and a few others, but mainly I post a lot of articles on LinkedIn. So, you can find me there. And this has been way too much fun. I enjoyed it. I hope you guys invite me back at some point. We can talk about more uncertainty.
Justin: Yeah, yeah. No, we really do appreciate it. By the way, for our listeners, the course is an online-based course. So, you don't have to be in Austin. If you want to make the trek down to Austin and get a really top shelf breakfast taco, you can do that, but you don't have to. You can take it in from anywhere. And so, I think it's just dynamite that you and Dr. Bradberry are helping lead this effort, guide these conversations for folks that are a part of the core. And it's just super important work.
Jim, thanks for spending time with us today.
Jim: Yeah, yeah. I can't say enough about Dr. Bradbury, too, and what she does, not only at the University of Texas but in her own practice. And she's been a joy to work with. And I've learned so much from her. Oh, my gosh. So, if your listeners have a chance to take part in our training, I can assure you that she is way more interesting on the research side of things than I am. So, I come in with hopefully what I do best, and she comes in with what she does best, and she has some really cool stuff to say, too.
Justin: There's a reason why you've got a play-by-play and a color commentary person. You know, there’s, there’s a great dynamic there, so.
Jim: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Justin and Ronnie, thank you and RKD so much for having us having meet today anyway.
Justin: Yeah, absolutely. No, we certainly appreciate it. Folks here, you know, you can always check out other episodes of Group Thinkers wherever you listen to your podcasts, if you listen with your ears or if you listen with your eyes.
Ronnie asked, he was doing a scientific experiment, that's why he's being so quiet. But he asked that I remind you that you can rate the episodes and always subscribe and make sure that we end up in your feed as soon as we publish new episodes.
So, thanks so much for checking this one out, and we will see you next time.
Group Thinkers is a production of RKD Group. For more information, visit rkdgroup.com/podcasts. Special thanks to our production team, including the talented Ryan Mellinger for his work on mixing every episode. Also a shout out to the content team that helps pull together research and guests puts the marketing efforts behind Group Thinkers. Suzanne, Ronnie and others for their work on this and every episode of Group Thinkers.