RKD GroupThinkers Blog

Leadership and transforming the nonprofit sector with Michelle Flores Vryn

Written by RKD Group | Oct 25, 2024 12:17:35 AM

On this episode of the RKD Group: Thinkers podcast, we’re excited to sit down with Michelle Flores Vryn, CFRE, a seasoned leader in nonprofit marketing and fundraising. With a career spanning across sectors like climate change and biodiversity, higher education and civic engagement, Michelle has driven impactful change by leading initiatives in major gifts, institutional giving, capital campaigns and digital fundraising. 

Michelle’s passion for the future of fundraising and nonprofit brand building is reflected in her innovative approach to community-centered fundraising (CCF). As a frequent speaker and advocate for practical CCF strategies, she brings valuable insights from her years of hands-on experience in the field. 

In this conversation, Michelle discusses her journey from conservation to nonprofit fundraising, the future of philanthropy and the challenges facing the nonprofit sector, including staff retention and generational expectations. She emphasizes the importance of leadership, flexibility and the role of AI in enhancing nonprofit work. The discussion also touches on personal growth, mentorship and the need for uncomfortable conversations to drive change in the sector. 

She shares:  

  • How conservation sparked her interest in nonprofit work. 
  • Nonprofits are at the forefront of impactful change. 
  • The future of philanthropy is intertwined with nonprofit health. 
  • Flexibility in work is crucial for staff retention. 
  • Younger generations have different expectations from work. 
  • AI poses both opportunities and challenges for nonprofits. 

 

 
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify

 

Show chapters

  • 00:00 Introduction and Fast-Paced Weeks 
  • 02:58 The Fascinating World of Bats 
  • 06:04 From Conservation to Nonprofit Fundraising 
  • 09:03 The Future of Philanthropy 
  • 11:58 Addressing the Nonprofit Staff Crisis 
  • 15:04 Generational Expectations in the Nonprofit Sector 
  • 17:49 The Role of AI in Nonprofits 
  • 20:59 Leadership and Mentorship in Nonprofits 
  • 24:00 Reflections on Personal Growth and Responsibility 
  • 26:46 Conclusion and Future Conversations 


Meet our guest

 

 

Transcript

Justin McCord 

Hi Michelle. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn   

So, we've made it. We've arrived. 

  

Justin McCord  

We did. We did. We've arrived. We were just talking about how fast weeks go now. And that doesn't mean that they're easy, but that they're fast. And it's been another fast week. And here we are. We're recording this, like, the day after World Mental Health Day. And I think it's so interesting to have a conversation with you on things that you have that you're not only interested in and passionate about, but also that have, like, pretty broad-sweeping implications for the philanthropic sector on the hills of World Mental Health Day. So, we're going to get into that, but Ronnie, I think you wanted to start at another place. 

  

Ronnie Richard  

It's a little bit different question than that, yes. Michelle, can you tell us one fun fact about bats that people might not know? 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn   

Eww! So many fun facts, Ron, and you're kind of putting me on the spot just citing one, but I would say the diversity of species of bat is very unknown. So, in terms of the taxonomy of mammals, for bats, there's so many different species, and that's because they've had such a long time to evolve. And it's really interesting, having worked at Bat Conservation International―which is why I'm getting this question, otherwise, I am not a bat, a bat expert or a bat biologist―there's a real diversity in their adaptation, and we can learn so much from that. So, even in terms of autonomous driving cars in the early days, a lot of people were studying bats to see like, well, how do they all like, swarm out, like, not hit each other? And like, there's so many things we can learn from them. And I guess that's my fun fact. If this, if you're interested, research all the different species because there's so many cool ones. 

  

Ronnie Richard  

That is fascinating, actually. So I mean, clearly, looking through your career, conservation environmental causes have been an important part of, of your career. And I'm curious, is that something that you kind of discovered in college? Or is that something that's always been a part of your life or an importantce to you?  

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

I feel like this is a common story, or a lot of people may have a similar one, but I grew up in a very rural area, which Justin and I can bond over, a rural area in Texas. Like, we can talk more about that. It's a whole vibe, y'all, in case you didn't grow up in small- town Texas, but we had a lot of access to natural areas there and where I lived.  I grew up in my later years and graduated from Lano High School, and there's the Lano River that runs through Lano. It's really beautiful. And I would find myself, you know, in high school going there just for solitude. And then there was so much public access to the riverfront, right? And I never really thought about that, like, how much of a valuable thing that was to have, to walk down to the river, be by yourself, be out in nature. 

 And then I moved to college to an urban area, and I realized like, yeah, there are some parks, but even in these parks, there's always people, right? Which is good. Like, I'm not saying that's bad, but, but more pristine, quiet nature is something I realized that I really valued. And that made me interested in conservation classes in college. So I think that was like, my realization I think that was likes really cool. And I had … and now that I don't have it anymore, but its taken away, I really value that, and I work towards other people having that same kind of exposure and experience. 

  

Justin McCord  

I love that. And yes, I feel a connection to that. It was a little bit later for me, Michelle, of finding that connection to my roots, and roots is a funny word to use in context of West Texas because not a lot of things grow. So there's, you … it's more like finding my connection to the tumbleweeds, I guess, of, you know, of the sticks, right, that you grew up in around. 

 And so I love that, and I love that you found that and started to explore that as a career and, you know, the balance of communications and learning how to fundraise. Where, like, where did this take a turn into the development side of, of this world? 

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Yeah, I mean, so conservation was my focus, and I thought I was going to get my PhD in an environmental field, and I realized that academics aren't the ones making big moves in conservation, right? Like, it's really, interestingly, it's the nonprofits. And you can say this for various fields, right? Like human services or workforce development, like, nonprofits are on the leading edge of figuring out how to push these topics and initiatives forward, which, you know, as an undergraduate, you don't necessarily make that connection immediately, but when I made that connection for conservation, I realized the people doing the coolest stuff are nonprofits, you know, like the Nature Conservancy, you know? Rural Wildlife Fund, all of the big ones, but also so many small ones. And I realized like, okay, I probably shouldn't pursue academia if I'm really impact focused, but maybe I could do nonprofit stuff.  

And at the time I was working at the university that I was going to in communications. And I was really kind of stolen by the advancement team saying like, you should apply for fundraising. And I literally remember telling the woman who told me that, like, I don't think I'm qualified to do fundraising. And she said, no, no, no, like, you absolutely are. It's just really communications work. And I was like, okay.  

And I realized she was so right. You know, it's interpersonal communication, it's persuasive writing. You have to be good with people. You have to be good with strategy. And if you have a comms background, a lot of that you may already have, you know, under your belt.  

And I applied for the job at the University in Fundraising. I got it. And I liked it. I liked fundraising for the university, and specifically, I was fundraising for student affairs. But I definitely felt this moment of like, I've worked all this time to do something conservation focused. And while I love my university, and I love my alma mater, it's not conservation. And I mean, I kind of wanted to do conservation. And so I applied to a job in Houston at the Galveston Bay Foundation. And that was where, like, it lined up for me. So I had nonprofit fundraising for a conservation mission, and it was pretty cool. You know, it was a really cool job. 

  

Justin McCord 

Where did the connection to AFP [Association of Fundraising Professionals] come in? Like, where did that, the … and we've got these kind of big tent poles in our minds of having seen and watched you, but then there's this path that, you know, so much of your profile now comes with your role and relationship to AFP. Like, where did that come along the way? 

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Yeah, I mean, I would say I was lucky that early on, even at the university when I had that very first development assistant job, people did tell me like, you need to be involved in AFP. And I, of course, looked it up and went. So, I've been a part of three AFP chapters: AFP San Antonio, Houston and Austin. And it's interesting because they're all so different. I'm sure you know this, Justin, even just from being on the road so much, like, every chapter has their own personality, and the way I'm doing things, I feel like they're … they very much have like, profiles of people. And so, I always was involved in AFP, and eventually I worked my way up to serving on the Austin board, but I felt that because I'm always focused on more higher-level trends like sectoral trends or national trends, I wanted to do something at a broader scale. And so that's why I applied to the AFP Global Board because I definitely have this interest in where is the future of philanthropy going? How can we bend it to ways that are more equitable and we're setting people up for success in the nonprofit sector.  

And so, I kind of felt like, if I can get this role, you know, I'll be more adjacent to conversations that are influencing these topics, and that feels like where I should be. And so, I was fortunate enough to get a position, and I’m still currently serving on the Global Board. 

  

Ronnie Richard  

You mentioned looking at where the future of philanthropy is going. What are your thoughts on that? Where is it headed? 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

I feel like the future of philanthropy is very much tethered to the future of nonprofit work, and how we conceptualize that, and what's good about the way we're doing things and what's bad about the way we're doing things. And every sector is going through this questioning, right? Like, it's not just us, but I do think that the way we best grapple with and answer those questions determines our fate. Like, we are determining our future right now, you know? Like, how willing we are to lead into uncomfortable conversations and to say, just because we're doing things this way doesn't mean we shouldn't change? 

 So I really, truly feel like philanthropy, the nonprofit sector, like, they're tethered; like, they're intertwined, you know? And that's why the fundraising conversations are so important because every nonprofit has amazing ideas, but their fulfillment depends on your funding. Like, we all know that, right? Like, are you getting attention? Are you not getting attention? So funding is critical to the health of the sector.  

So, to answer your question, I guess more directly and not philosophically, where do I see it going? I think we have to lean into what we've done wrong with the workplace containers and spaces that we've created in the nonprofit sector and how so much of it is unhealthy.  

And I'm not one to like, really stay on the negative trends of things. Like, I'm a very optimistic person. I'm a solution-focused person. And I always try to move people towards reimagining how we could be. So I think if we can move into those conversations and be excited about them, the re-imagination conversations, we're going to get to somewhere pretty cool. I do think, though, like, if we can't, we're going to create even more pains for ourselves. 

  

Justin McCord 

Pains for herself is definitely a current reality, right? Like the, the mounting pressures for our ecosystem―whether or not you're in a nonprofit, or even if you're a part of the broader ecosystem that supports nonprofits like RKD―like, there are some massive challenges right now. There's performance challenges around fundraising and marketing because of the increase of cost, and the proliferation of channels, and the usability of data and the ever present, maybe even ghost, of AI, like, just always around, but never around. Like, all of those are one pressure. There's, you know, a connection pressure, I think, because as individuals, as consumers, we have changed so much of what we do and, as you've said, nonprofits have not necessarily changed how they connect with people in line with the change that people have made in terms of what they do.  

And then there's the staff pressure. And this is something that you're particularly well-versed on because of, it's not quite a side hustle, it's somewhere between a side hustle and a passion project. So, tell us about the staff crisis that we're in ... 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Thank you. 

  

Justin McCord 

… in this current moment. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Yeah, so this leads nicely into a lot of the research that I co-created with my very good friend Evan Waldstein, who's based in Houston―so another Texas person here―and we were really interested in looking at during the pandemic just what was happening with turnover; what are people feeling? We even hosted conversations through an AFP chapter just to give people a sense of like, you're not alone. Like, we're all burnt out, we're stressed out. Like, we're here for each other to create a sense of community.  

So, we didn't just do the survey, but I feel like the survey, the social impact retention survey, is kind of like our flagship item that we produced from this time. And it's actually still open right now, so if you're listening to this and it's before October 31st, please take the survey online.  

But year one was completed, and what, essentially, we learned was we were doing high turnover in the nonprofit sector, but about 10 points higher than the average industry. So we were higher at the time than the average industry. So, not great, not what we wanna hear, but it was interesting to see a lot of themes in the report, and I can name some of them, one being people who were more established in the sector by year, so they had been working in the sector longer, were more likely to stay and to say like, okay, these conditions aren't great, but I'm not ready to leave yet. People who were younger in their careers were more likely to want to move on and to be looking for jobs. This is something I think so much about, and I try to write about it in my post. 

 And it could just be, you, my immediate circle of awareness, but I know so many young people who want to work for this sector but feel like, it is crazy up in here. I am not staying. Like, what is happening? No, thank you. This is not what I thought it was going to be like. 

 And that's a real problem for us. And we need new people to come in and be attracted to the sector. And when that doesn't happen, we should all be looking at that trend. So that was one issue that came about.  

But another theme that I always like to point out, kind of being more solution-focused, as I am, is people said they were more willing to stay if they could just have flexibility at work and in their role. And we know that from the pandemic, like, this isn't new, like, people want flexibility. But I always think, as nonprofits, that's something we can really give folks is flexibility in, like, setting your hours. Maybe you're working eight to five or nine to six or whatever. There's all kinds of flexibility we can give people. 

So I always like to underscore that, as employers that are listening, that have nonprofit teams, think about if you could always add any additional flexibility into the way your team is working because we know that that will help people stay longer. 

  

Justin McCord 

One of the ... Go ahead, Ronnie. You go. You go. You go. You go. 

  

Ronnie Richard 

That's a good Justin. I was just going to say that it's such an interesting finding about the younger employees. And I'm wondering, is this something that's new to the sector? Or has this always been a challenge? And if it's new, what's different now that is causing young people to just like … because, yeah, when people come in, they're excited. They want to make an impact. And they want to, you know, come into the sector and do something good. And then, yeah, like you said, it's like, whoa, whoa, this is not what I thought it was going to be. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Thank you. Yeah, I, I can speculate here. So that's why I'm on this podcast. I don't have a lot of longitudinal research to back this up specifically for nonprofits, but we can say it from a larger or a wider lens that we know generational expectations have changed. You know, what my parents would have put up with at work is different than what I would put up with. And it's different from what other generations would put up with now. And I don't see that reversing. So I think we just need to come to terms with that to an extent. 

I mean, people should still work and contribute in a good way, but I think that really what I see happening is the pay hasn't kept up with inflation, and so you're coming in at a lower price point because you're new, and you don't have flexibility. The leadership can be lacking in many areas, and I think people are just thinking like, they want to do good social-change work but maybe not at all the cost of the structures that we've created like our generations and our parents' generations, right? They created these things. And I feel like younger people are just not willing to give up what past generations would have given up.  

And I mean, I personally, I don't know what you think, Ronnie or Justin, but that excites me. Like, I think it's good that they're pushing us to think different about our expectations. 

  

Justin McCord 

I think that there's, in particular in the nonprofit sector, our tendency is to think about impact out in terms of achieving our mission and solving our problems. And we live with a tremendous amount of, maybe, imposter syndrome in comparison to commercial spaces because of those narratives that we hear about, you know, keeping up with commercial marketing, et cetera, et cetera.  

And, and boards being made up largely of, you know, or influenced by commercial, very successful commercial leaders, I think that all of that creates a recipe where we may not think about leadership development and a pipeline of leadership development for our younger employees as much as we think about impact outside of our organization. And so it creates a little bit of a recipe for those younger people, younger generations newer to the sector to come in, full of gusto, and then to not see their path to accelerate. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Right. 

  

Justin McCord 

That's why I love the work of folks like the Nonprofit Alliance that has rising leader summit and that has specific programming to develop that next generation. I don't think, as a leader, I don't think that you can fall into thinking about the next generation, those that come behind you. I think it has to be something intentional. And for better or worse, Ronnie, I think that some of what we're seeing is a lack of that previously, broadly speaking, across the sector. 

  

Ronnie Richard 

Yeah, I think that's an aspect, and probably, like you mentioned, the boards and the upper leadership, there's probably an aspect as well of they see what's happening in the commercial. They want to do that. Maybe don't have as many resources available to do it but still have an expectation. And so, as you see, that flow down to the younger employees who are coming in, it's like, do all these things but with the limited resources you have. And then, that's when you talk about getting overwhelmed. You talk about too much on your plate and wearing all the different hats, right? Exactly, exactly. 

  

Justin McCord  

This isn't what I signed up for, like, that sort of mentality. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like this goes back to maybe my initial response to like, the future of philanthropy. And I said, it's so tied to fundraising, but even in that thread, or like that quilt of things, is leadership. I feel like leadership are either going to be willing to have these conversations―and the ones that are, people are just going to flock to those organizations.  

I read a post on LinkedIn where someone said like, people no longer want to work for a company just because of the brand. They want to work with certain people that work there, and I thought, gosh, that is so true, you know, like, it … I would go or think about going somewhere just if the executive director was so charismatic, innovative, willing to test things, I mean, that's an appeal for people. 

 And if I can be so bold as to project out 10 years from now, I think you're just gonna have the nonprofits who get it and are adapting and the ones that don't. And people, no one is going to want to work for them. And I think we see that now, like, these really low-paying jobs that nobody will touch for the 10-foot pole because it's just too much. So, at some point they've got to change the job descriptions and the expectations. 

  

Justin McCord 

How has this study and your work with Evan changed how you approach your day-to-day job? 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn 

I have a, I'm looking at a quote, I have a whiteboard up here, and there's one question. No, it's not for this. It's a, it's like my personal thoughts, which are like, all chaotic, which is, probably resembles my actual life. But this one question I always try to keep in mind and ask myself, it is like, a deep philosophical question but definitely pertains to work, is ... 

  

Justin McCord  

You brought a cheat sheet to a podcast? 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

… “How am I complicit in creating the conditions I say I don't want?” 

  

Justin McCord  

Ho. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

I think about the study a lot, Like how expectations at team meetings, when I push back and don't push back, because I have now more positional power than I've ever had. And I do, I'm happy for that, I've earned it, but I also think that comes with so much responsibility.  

And I already had that propensity of thinking before the survey, but now I feel like I'm really holding myself to it, and I'm glad that I'm doing that. It's also a lot of work, though, because, you know, even I think that this is like a similar thing of someone being a person of color. So, my family is Mexican American, and you know, in like, race-based conversations, people of color always feel like I don't want to be the one to always bring stuff up, to always flag stuff because it's just exhausting, and you can't do it every time. You can only do it when you have like, the stamina to do it.  

But this is a very similar feeling, I think, you know, people with positional power, it's like, you have to speak up when you can. And sometimes you're just not gonna have it, right? Like, it's just a long Thursday, you're tired, and you just don't, you can't push back against the board chair or whoever. But I think about that quote, like, how am I being complicit in creating conditions I say I don't want? 

  

Justin McCord 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn 

And it's a hard filter to run things through, right? Like, that's a tough one, but it is aspirational. I don't get it right all the time, but I think I get it right most of the time, which makes me feel good. 

  

Ronnie Richard  

I mean, I don't think anybody could get it right all of the time. I mean, if we're, we've to give ourselves grace, right? And so, I was just thinking of an interesting intersection here in this, like, what we're talking about, these challenges of resources and, and work and expectations. Here comes this magic pill, if you will, of AI, and there are ways that AI can streamline things and bring efficiencies, but there's also challenges with it and confusion. And how do you see AI coming in? ‘Cause AI is something you've recently gotten passionate about as well. Like, how, how do you fit that into this conversation? 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

Ronnie, your team me up so well. Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate you and your research, much appreciated. So, I have a study, another study that I did with one of my dearest friends, Mina Das, and it's an AI and equity study in the nonprofit sector. And you can read it. It's online. We'll drop the link in the show notes. But one of the biggest things around this study that Mina and I have said in conversations for, like, a year plus now is the questions about AI are actually not technology questions, they're human questions. Like, what kinds of work should we be doing, should we be applying our creative abilities and limited life force to, and what things can be automated? But to truly answer these questions, you have to do deep philosophical thought on who is it we want to become? Where are we wasting our time? How does this augment our mission delivery, you know? And my fear is―and this is why we did this study―people aren't going to know how to settle into those questions.  

And it's tough. I mean, you can already tell from the question I cited earlier, I'm a very deep reflector, and these kinds of existential questions come easier to me, and I've been doing it for many, many years. But I don't think that's the case for everyone. And when we're already so busy and so strapped for time, it's so behind, you know, we want to make sure, with our AI and data equity study, that we're making it easier for people to really sit down, get around the table, even if it's a virtual Zoom table, and ask, what, how do we want to use our creativity? Where is it best placed? And, you know, where are we just wasting time, right? Like, we don't need to take notes at meetings. Like, I had a conversation with another organization to where the assistant to the CEO, like, she was still taking meetings, meeting notes and all of the committee board meetings. I'm like, we just can't let her do that anymore. She can do so many other things. Like … and it's interesting because in those conversations, people will say, you know, we don't want to hurt her feelings, and she's done it for so many years, and, and I'm like, we're just not prepared to have these conversations because I'm not saying that there's not anything she can do of value. I'm saying we're not leveraging her value to the highest way in what we're currently doing. So let's like, really sit on that, think about it.  

And that is like, a micro example of I think the larger questions we need to be comfortable with swimming in. And I hope that that happens through this study because we have resources attached to it, which are free and open to everyone. 

  

Justin McCord   

And you're presenting on it next year at AFP ICON. And that's super exciting. Hopefully we're not presenting at the same time as we're presenting with GivingTuesday on the work, the collaboration that we're doing with them. So if we're like, across the hall from each other, then, you know, I don't know, we're going to have to figure that out.  

Michelle, you know, it's interesting that you reflect on that question. And even through this conversation, feeling some of that reflective nature that you referenced. Evan and I bonded at some point last year over even the use of the word ‘ponder.’ And he is a big fan of pondering. I'm a big fan of both the word and the act, as are you. And I think it's good to have time and space to ponder and to think deeply on things. That is a habit that I learned from a leader that was very intentional with me.  

You have a tremendous amount of work that you're doing in helping understand staff impact and helping understand staff resourcing around AI, obviously, with the work that you're, you're doing just in development on a day-to-day basis. Who are some of the leaders that are currently or that in your career have poured into you? And what would you tell us about just a couple of those folks? 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn 

That's an interesting question for me, I feel like, because if I'm being very honest, I think that in my younger years, and maybe even somewhat recently, I think I looked for a lot of people to look up to and to be inspired by. I've definitely had a few, I would say I've learned more from people doing it wrong, probably, than people doing it right. And again, like, I'm a very positive person, so I'm trying to bring the negative Nancy vibe here, but I recently said this on a LinkedIn comment, but we had one leader at an organization that when they would announce they weren't coming in that day for work, you could visibly feel and hear people’s sigh of relief. They were just like, thank God, like, they're not gonna be here today. And not even in a joking manner. I mean, that's how they really felt.  

And I always like, that's one example of me picking up and then always feeling like I hope I never create that kind of response with people who work with me. And I learned that lesson from seeing how people have done it wrong. So it's a weird way to say that's inspiring, but for me, I don't know, like, it is. I'm like a master of reframing, which is a very healthy habit. 

 So those kinds of things have always, I think, inspired me and like, built me into something that I think I was always looking for. 

  

Justin McCord  

Mm. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

And maybe I found bits and pieces of it, but I always try to mentor people now, which is a very important thing to me, especially young fundraisers of color, because I want them to see, like, I want them to have that, to have people who will say, like, take care of yourself and ask for help in this way. And I think I really, just being honest, didn't have that for a long time. 

  

Justin McCord  

Mm-hmm. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn 

But I will share on this note that the best CEO I ever worked with was also the youngest CEO. He was in his early 30s. And I always like to say that because, you know, leaders come in all sizes and shapes and ages. And he, I think, always believed in me, and he always listened to me, you know? And I remember like, one time he said, I'm so happy that you're here. And that was like, the best compliment a leader had ever given me because I felt it, and like, I knew he meant it. And yeah, I think people believing in your capability is like, the largest, most beautiful gift anyone can bestow upon you. 

  

Justin McCord  

It's a great way to think about it. Ronnie has heard me say often that, you know, as a leader, as a manager, you're likely going to be a topic at the dinner table of those that you manage. And it's gonna be for good or bad, but you're gonna be a part of what comes up at the dinner table. And so, Michelle ... 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

So true. 

  

Justin McCord 

… we, we so appreciate you hanging out with us today and sharing some of your stories, some of your journey and giving us a peek into the way that you're helping shape and reframe multiple dimensions of the sector. And so, we applaud that work and are excited to see it continue. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn   

Thank you for the space. This was a lovely conversation. 

  

Justin McCord  

All right, well then, that just means we'll have to do it again. We'll have to have another lovely conversation after the next iteration of the retention survey. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn  

I love it. Sounds good. 

  

Justin McCord  

All right. Thanks, friend. We'll talk to you soon. 

  

Michelle Flores Vryn   

All right, bye. 

Group Thinkers is a production of RKD Group. For more information, including how you can partner with RKD to accelerate growth for your fundraising and nonprofit marketing needs, visit rkdgroup.com.