In this episode of the RKD Group: Chat podcast, Carl Ferrara, a product innovation specialist at Children International, shares his journey from a childhood influenced by his father's work in healthcare to his current role in leveraging technology for philanthropy. He discusses the importance of user testing in understanding donor motivations and the evolving role of AI in streamlining processes. Carl emphasizes the significance of testing and learning in nonprofit work, advocating for a culture that embraces change and innovation.
In this conversation, Carl Ferrara shares his insights on the importance of insight-driven testing in nonprofit work, drawing from his experiences in healthcare and his current role at Children International. He emphasizes the need for grounding decisions in data and insights rather than trends or personal preferences.
Resources from the Episode
As you listen to the episode, you'll hear Carl reference a few different items, and we have a list of those links for you here:
Transcript
Kate McKinley
Hello and welcome back to RKD Group: Chat. I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Carl Ferrara a the product innovation specialist. He leads innovation and UX testing at Children International. What I love about this interview is that Carl has such an interesting but also approachable way of sharing how he uses active listening and iterative testing to drive innovation initiatives for the global nonprofit.
His passion for healthcare, giving back, and technology shine so brightly throughout this conversation. And I hope it inspires you to “think like an outsider,” as Carl likes to put it, when it comes to innovation work at your own organization. Let's dive in.
Carl Ferrara
So, originally from New York, I grew up in a large Italian family. And my dad was a pediatrician, and he was a doctor. And one thing I remember early on, especially when I was little, is he would make a lot of house calls where he would actually go and do blood pressure checks and all that. And he was very involved in giving back. He was very involved in volunteering. He was very involved in helping others. And he had a passion for helping others.
So from a very young age, I was always drawn to that. That was something that for me just resonated with me. In fact, right here by my side, although he passed in 1988, I still have his medical bag. It's all frayed and stuff. But this is something that I remember he would have with them whenever he went and wherever he made those house calls because he was doing it for the love of just helping people. And yes, he had to bribe me by taking me to Radio Shack because I was also a geek.
I do remember those days, and that was really important. And fast forward a little bit, you know, I grew up in New York, went to NYU, graduated, got married, moved to Kansas City. And I knew I wanted to be involved either in healthcare or in the nonprofit sector, both of which involved that element of giving back.
So I started early working in the healthcare industry, really at an interesting time because that's when the internet was just coming into the play. People were trying to understand how the internet works. And I was already on top of it. I was already, even early on during what we call the wild, wild west days, on the internet. I was involved in there from a technology standpoint. So I always leaned into the technology side. That was like my “in” for lack of better terms. And then my wife, actually, believe it or not, worked at Children International back in the late ‘90s. So I was able to understand how they worked as well, just from appreciating what she was doing.
And she's also wired very similar. She loves to give back. She loves to help. Even before I started at Children International―which I'll reference as CI, so if I say “CI” in a slip, that's what it means―I knew back then this is a really interesting organization because it has those elements of healthcare, children, helping youth in developing countries. It's very much of a hands-on. Great stories. I felt it was right there.
So, I was fortunate to start in 2011 at CI, and, and early on, I came on more as a strategist just to kind of help develop a lot of the strategies with their advocacy. Back then, they had something called LiftOne. LiftOne was basically their advocacy network. So, it was comprised of sponsors and donors. So―and just, also, when I reference sponsors, I'm referring to monthly child sponsors, not corporate sponsors, so these are people that are giving to support a particular child. And I helped develop and shape those strategies to support our advocacy efforts with LiftOne; we called it “Lifters” back then. And then that slowly evolved into doing more work around user testing, innovation, UX development. Again, it took that element of technology and giving back, that intersection where the two come together. That was all part of it. In 2015, 2016, I started doing a lot more work in that space. So, I still have the same passion today. We still do a lot of testing.
A big part of my world is listening. Listening to what donors want, doing various plans to develop ways in which we can engage with them, testing new technologies. My kids always say, you get to play with cool toys, but yeah, I get to try out different technologies. But at its core, it's all about giving back and making donors feel like they're doing something and doing something that makes them feel good. So we lean into a lot of new technologies, even, most currently, with AI and immersive technologies, to help make it real and help tell those stories.
Kate McKinley
You heard Carl mention that a big part of what he does for Children International is listening, specifically to what donors want so they can build more immersive and engaging experiences with them. I asked Carl to expand on this and share ways he's doing this in his role.
Carl Ferrara
So, a big part of it is leaning into what we call user testing. So, user testing is where donors or sponsors can share their experience with a particular type of either product or web experience. So if they go to our website and they want to make a donation, we're able to see what they see. We're able to kind of understand what they want. And we're, more importantly, through dialogue, we're talking with them; they're able to share their experience.
And that's pretty cool because you're able to really understand what's going on between their ears when they're looking at content. I've always said this, you know, one of the biggest mistakes we always make is we assume other people think the way we think. That comes true when it comes to understanding, you know, sponsors and donors, when they view a new webpage, when they see a story, and really understand what resonates with them, what makes them feel good, you know?
And I always start out with the question of, you know, what's your motivation to give? You know, why do you give? And for some people, they have a genuine affinity for certain types of programs, or they like to give back to education or healthcare or employment. And for others, it makes them feel good. It's very simple, you know? But I think once you identify that motivation, that driver, then you kind of help understand what does their journey look like when they're with CI, because they have options, you know? But at its core, they want to connect dollars to impact. So they want to connect their donations and being able to see the impact that it makes.
And you have to make it real for them because they're not buying a tangible, like, it'd be easy if we were just selling phones, or toasters and stuff. We're not; we're selling a certain, we're selling something that makes them feel good about who they are. And, more importantly, they want to give to those programs because they truly have a heart beating in their chest. They like doing it.
So yeah, so a big part of my world is listening to them with user testing where they're actually giving us feedback. We do focus groups. We do virtual round tables. I mean, one silver lining with the pandemic is it got people comfortable doing things virtually, even those that were not tech savvy. So, virtual round tables is where we actually have a discussion, you know, like we are right now. So … and we're able to kind of, you know, get a read on that. And of course, then there's things like surveys, and polls, and feedback forums and all that combined. So you put that into a blender, you're able to kind of get a good read on how people engage, how they interact, and more importantly, how they feel. You know, the emotional part is what I always lean into because people always lean into the emotion, and that's my soft spot.
Kate McKinley
So a big part of Carl's role is obviously technology, but it's not just about how he uses technology to build new experiences. It's also about understanding how donors use technology in their day-to-day lives so that the organization can better meet them where they are.
Carl Ferrara
Yeah, so, and I was able to kind of understand, you know, first of all, their experience with technology, too, understanding that, you know, as far as like, you know, what's the comfort level with doing things on the phone versus, you know, on the desktop and really understand that. And also, we established something called the Sponsor Feedback Panel, which is something that I manage as well, where these sponsors can actually just jump in, and they can provide feedback on certain areas of our website, or products or whatever we have out there. And a product is more of a donor-based product. So having a group of people that are able to do it makes them feel better because they're all contributing. And also there's that sense of community. There's a communal vibe to it as well. So they feel good about that.
And on the analysis front, we're able to use things like AI, specifically Copilot, to do that analysis. I'll be honest with you, there was a time when I would have to manually tag responses, open-ended responses. And when I say tag, it's just associating a word with it. So someone says, oh, I can't sponsor anymore because I was laid off, and it's financial constraints, you know, whatever it is. We would have to always take what they say and put that into a tag or a phrase or make sure that's marked up. And in doing so, we're able to do that analysis, but that was very much for manual effort. Now that we're able to lean into AI, it's able to automate a lot of that that was once manual. That makes my job easier because on the stuff that we don't like, that analysis front, you're doing three, four or 500 sessions. That takes a lot of time. In fact, I would actually walk and listen to sessions and try to guess what they're doing while just listening to them. But at its core, using AI has helped us do that analysis a lot easier. It streamlined a lot of that. So it makes my job easier. We're able to do the analysis and focus on the things that we love doing, which is really just talking to people. So it's definitely handing and taking over that heavy lifting of the manual processes.
Kate McKinley
From AI to active listening, Carl uses many tools in his day-to-day role as a product innovation specialist. But perhaps the most interesting tool Carl shared with me was the Osterwalder model that he and the team at Children International have leveraged to help visualize and socialize their testing approach.
Carl Ferrara
Yeah, so several years ago, I was introduced to a model that was developed by Alex Osterwalder. And this is something that was interesting because the model itself, Osterwalder is best known for the business model canvas, but he's also done value prop canvas and insight tools. We did not really have a system several years ago. We really did not have a comprehensive system for capturing insights and testing. So, what's beautiful about the Osterwalder model, first of all, it's very visual, but it all starts with that hypothesis. And we have something called the test card, which I can show you. It's very simple. It's basically like, you have your hypothesis, meaning this is what you believe in. You have what you're going to test. You have what you're going to be measuring, your metrics, your KPIs. And then you have the success criteria, like, how do you know if you're right? And I always say, if you can't answer those four things, you don't have a test. So it may sound like it's like a tech, technology-based driven solution, but it was something that provided structure to our testing.
And I'll never forget when I first reached out to our facilities manager at CI. I said, I'm sorry, there's no call coming in. I'm trying to ignore it. This was interesting. I reached out to our facilities manager, and said, “Sam, I need an eight-foot magnetic board, eight by six, so eight feet by six feet.” And he was like, “For what, Carl? What are you doing?” I said, “Let me show you.” And I told him, I said, “I want to use magnetic cards that we can actually have test cards on there.” And there are three simple swim lanes: build, measure and learn. Build is a test card. Measure is when it actually runs, and you're capturing data, it's measuring data. And learn is what they call the learning card. That's part of the model. And he came by my desk, and he says, “What is this thing about?” And I told him about it, and he got it instantly. He understood it immediately. And he says, “You know what? I have some old sheet metal from the roof upstairs. Let me see if I can get some for you. I'll cut it to size, to eight foot by ten foot.” But the beauty of it, the beauty of it is two weeks later, he's walking through the hall, and he's giving, like, a new guy, he’s giving him like, an orientation. And he stops by my desk, and he says, “Hey, this guy's Carl. He does this, well, this testing and stuff. And let me show you how these test cards work” you know, they build, measure, explained the whole model just right out of the gate, and even threw the card, the magnetic card, like a frisbee onto the board. And I said to myself, as I put the headphones back on, I said, Carl, not to talk myself into their person, but like, you really did a good job because here's someone who's not in the space of testing. He's a wonderful man, but this is not his thing. And he understood it completely. So a big part of my world, and I think it's important, is to socialize the element of testing.
And that progress board is a big statement. I mean, it's eight feet by ten feet. So it's a pretty big size. It's right by my desk. And I still believe that you need something like that to help socialize it. And yes, we've done in-services, and yes, there's a bag of candy near the bank board to get people in there. But I think, at its core, it's about socializing. Socializing it so that everyone understands it. So I would say that's another tool belt in my arsenal is using this model.
And that model is still evolving. We're still using it, but we're trying new ways of using it just to kind of capture insights and, more importantly, to give structure to all of our tests. So when a test crosses the finish line, we do a learning card, and everything is captured in terms of what learnings that we got out of it. And there was a time when CI, we were afraid of the pivot. The pivot is when you say, we ran this test for six weeks, and this was the outcome, and now we need … that's what the learning card says. We learned this, we observed this. These are the insights that we got from this. And then the most important part of the learning card is, therefore, we will do X. So that is where the pivot comes into play. We've come to the space now where we embrace the pivot, where we don't run away from it. We embrace it, which means when we see a task go through, it runs a short sprint, let's say six to eight weeks, whatever it is, and we say, okay, what's next? So we have our eyes on the learning card just to frame up what's next. And the learning card will ultimately feed a new test card. And then the cycle just continues.
So I'm a big believer in the model. I've used it. And the guy who introduced it to me, he retired. And he said to me in his last year, he said, “Carl, you need to make sure this model stays within the organization.” And I remained committed to that. And he was a kind of, he was an interesting guy, Pat was, you know? He was … I'll give you a visual: you know Doc Brown from Back to the Future, you know, the crazy hair and stuff? You know, he was loved, but he was a little eccentric, a little out there, very smart, you know, kind of a Mensa-type guy, but really, really, he really was trying to sell this model, and I never quite got it there. And then when I visited him in his log cabin, I showed it to him. I said, “This is what we're doing now.” And he was so happy to see it, you know, just to continue to evolve and stay alive at CI.
And I would challenge anyone listening, just Google Osterwalder, look up Business Model Canvas and Visual Prop Canvas. One thing you'll see, right out of the gate, it's all visual. You can take a whole model instead of a 16-page summary, all of that's on one canvas. And when I say “canvas,” it's beautiful because it shows every little area of that business model or that test plan. So I highly recommend anyone checking that out to do so because it really does allow … especially for marketing folks that are very visual. I'm very visual. I need that.
Kate McKinley
Carl lives and breeds testing, and he's obviously very talented at identifying what tests to run in order to get the insights needed for the organization. So I asked him to share some advice for those who are maybe looking for a little inspiration in the testing department.
Carl Ferrara
I think it's a combination of making sure that you're grounded in whatever decision you make, because I have people that come to my desk and they'll say, “Hey, Carl, wouldn't it be cool if we do this? Wouldn't it be cool for that? We do that.” And I don't, I never, I never, I never hushed them down. I never say, no, we'll never do that. I always say, let's try to do some insight work to help frame that up. Because I think you need that insight work as a foundation for any test because then you're driven by insights rather than what you think we should be doing or, or would, I like to say, wouldn't it be cool if …?
Because we have people that that's what they're thinking. They're like, oh, we should do it because it's cool, or we should do this because it's the latest edge. I had someone come to me one time and say, “Well, Google Glass, we should definitely use it.” And I'm not going to tell you what happened to Google Glass, but it's like, we were thinking, oh, we could have kids in the field that can use it because of that perspective. I was like, yeah, but I actually went to the area of Honduras in San Pedro Sula. And I can tell you right now, if a youth was walking around with a Google Glass, it would be security risks right there. So you have to always be careful and think about what insights are driving that element of testing and what insights are you using to frame up that test.
And that's what I love about the model is it's all driven by insights. It's driven by what have you done to really lead you to this hypothesis of “We believe that”? That has to be grounded, grounded in insight work. And that's something that, even to this day, we're still, you know, it's that we're not perfect at it. We're still fine tuning it. But I think we've gotten better with this comprehensive system that we have in place for doing that insight work. So you have to have that in place, you know, otherwise you're just gonna do ideas based or tests that you think are like, you don't really know.
And also, one thing you have to also keep in mind is, you know, there are lots of things that you can test. You can test a web experience, an email, a journey, a new product. I mean, there's so many things you can test. You have to also do it in a collaborative sense. So you can't be alone. And that means working with others and making sure that others are also as committed to that test as you are, because there are people that do that. They'll like, they'll they have an idea. It's, it's what I call story. They have their story. They're like, this is what they believe, is what they believe in, but it's not grounded in any insight work. And what happens is it becomes only their story, and they become a raving lunatic, just like saying, we must do this because of this. No, if you have insight work, you could say 90% of the people would like this over that, or we found this to be a pain point in the journey or the experience. So we need to do something because 90% have addressed this as a pain point.
That's usually where my work starts is with pain points. Like, what are the things that people don't like, or I call them “virtual potholes.” You know, things that people do in the journey and the web experience, like writing a letter is important to us as far as sponsors and stuff. So if we identify any virtual potholes, we can address those through testing, but it's driven by insight work. At its core, that's the one thing I cannot stress enough is it has to be grounded in insight.
Kate McKinley
As you heard Carl mention at the start of our conversation, he got his start in the healthcare world before making the jump to the nonprofit space. Here are a few lessons he learned from his time in healthcare that he still uses in his role today.
Carl Ferrara
Yeah, so when I started in healthcare, I was working for a small home healthcare company, and we basically provided rehab products―physical rehab products like wheelchairs and walkers and respiratory products as well. And it was a small company, and I loved that. I loved it. And I said, I'm always drawn to the smaller mom-and-pop operations or organizations where I feel like you can make a difference.
And of course, like a lot of smaller healthcare companies, that got bought out by a larger healthcare company. And I realized pretty quickly that, you know, that's not for me. I'm not … I enjoy having that kind of lean and scrappy mindset. And when I go, I … with my current role right now, I have that same approach. I know it sounds weird because I've been with CI for over 12 years, but I always think like an outsider. I always look at projects like, what is it like for that person coming into this journey, or this donation product or this experience with the organization? What is it like for them? And I'm always thinking like the outsider looking in. And that helps me frame up a lot of the testing because I'm able to look at it from their perspective. So that, for me, is important, is having that kind of scrappy, lean mindset where you can actually do anything.
And also, I'm always driven by the need. Like, what are the needs that we need to do, you know? So I look at opportunities, and that's what we did with our insight work is like, we didn't have a system for doing insight work. And granted, Pat, who is my old boss, he introduced me to the model, but I had to take the reins and say, I need to push this through. So I think when you see an opportunity, you have to seize it; you have to do it. I know it sounds cheesy, but it's like, that is really important because, you know, you are your best advocate; you're the one who actually has to do it. So … and that was important as well. But the element of healthcare in terms of working with healthcare, it still had that element of getting, giving back and helping others. I think that's, that's important because that should be the mission. And I believe in that same mission with CI is we're always giving back. We're always helping youth and seeing those impact stories. For me, that is gold. That's something that I truly believe in. And that's something that is, is a common thread with both healthcare and the nonprofit sector.
Kate McKinley
Despite having a job based so heavily in technology and the science of testing, Carl has shared throughout the interview that he relies heavily on reading the emotions of donors in order to be successful. In this clip, Carl spends a little time sharing how he stays grounded in his work while honoring his passion for the job and the inherent emotions that nonprofit work can bring up in his life.
Carl Ferrara
Yeah, I mean, a big part of it, too, is going to the field and seeing the work and seeing the impact directly. I think that really grounds you and makes you feel like this is work that is really making a difference. I mean, it's one thing for me to look at a spreadsheet, or a video or a story. It's another to actually be in the field and experience it directly and see the impact of the youth with our programs. So … and you bring that perspective back home with you. In other words, that kind of makes you kind of, our CEO uses the term “fills the cup,” you know? Basically, it makes you feel like, hey, this is what this program is about. This is the impact of this program. And I'm able to see with my own two eyes, you know, so I think that is a grounding experience when you actually go to the field.
And also when you work with our agency folks, the field operators, people that are actually working in the field directly. We're a global organization, so being able to work with them directly just deepens your connection. It grounds you into the work we're doing. And, most importantly, it helps you be a better person because you're trying to say, I'm doing this for the youth that I actually have seen with my own two eyes. I know what these programs are doing. So when you're more passionate or more connected to the cause and the programs, that just comes out in your work. So you're not just juggling spreadsheets and documents. You're actually boots on the ground, which means you're there.
And let me tell you something. Well, let me tell you what's interesting about, especially in countries like the Philippines, which I've been to: not only they're very tech savvy, but they're very resourceful. So they figure out, they always think about, here's the problem. I need to use technology to kind of overcome this. So I need to figure out a way to do it and do it in a very cost-efficient way; do it in a way that gets the results. And they have what we call, we love acronyms at the CI, but GETL, which is good enough to learn. It's a term that we use basically like, they can really take things like that, especially with technology, and you have that scrappy mindset of saying, this is what I'm trying to do. This is a problem I'm trying to solve. Here's an easy solution, and they go for the easy button. And actually, an easy button in a good way, you know? And that's something that I think we, you know, we're very comfortable here. You know, I have lots of bandwidth and stuff, and I have lots of things in my house that I can do. I've, you know, I've every technology you could think of in my house. But there, they have limited resources, and they can only do so much. They figure out how to make it work. So when you're around them, you kind of get that scrappy mindset to like, let's, all we need to do is just good enough to learn, which means we just need something that is gonna allow us to learn, and that's it. And that scrappy mindset is powerful stuff, it really is.
Kate McKinley
Alright, speaking of field visits, I want to ask Carl to share some of his most memorable moments from his time at Children International. Field visits were among the top of his list.
Carl Ferrara
I mean, I always go back to the field visits and things that, you know, for me were just really special. And I remember when I was in the Philippines, you know, there's a 12-, 13-hour difference. So it takes about a day to kind of, you know, your body has to recalibrate and stuff. And I remember waking up in the hotel and walking down the street. And first of all, I'm 6'4", so I'm a pretty tall guy. And I realized my shadow alone was being cast on the streets as I was walking down there.
But I do remember one thing in particular when I went to the community center: Everyone was so committed to the programs. It was not because I was there. It was not that. Just, when I arrived at the community center, I walked down the street and went to the community center, I realized that everyone was so committed to the cause and the programs. And for me, that was really special.
But I'll never forget, I was playing chess. I played chess, as well, with one of the youth leaders. And his job also was photographer. So he was actually doing photography as well. He was learning to be a photographer, which is great. It's a great skill. And this was probably at, I don't know, nine o'clock at night, and a truck pulled up, and it was delivering. We had a program for shoes. We’d teamed up with Tom's, Tom's shoes, and the truck was unloading. And here he is, it's nine o'clock; he's tired; we're playing chess.
He grabbed his camera, jumped on top of the truck as fast as I could see. I mean, that was incredible. And he was taking photos and doing it right there. And this is someone at nine o'clock at night, you know, he was tired; it was done; but he was committed to capture it, them unloading this truck of shoes in the community center. He wanted to do it as they were pulling up. So we stopped playing chess. He jumped on top of the truck, and he took it. And I realized at that moment, I was like, that's just, the commitment is there, you know, and they're committed to really helping and seeing things through.
Kate McKinley
Finally, as we close out our time together, Carl shared a few lessons he's learned from his time at Children International and hopes it might give some inspiration to those listening. Here's what he had to say.
Carl Ferrara
Things come off the top of my head. It’s that element of … it's, it's, it's almost like whenever you do something, you know, like, whenever you're, whatever you're doing, make sure you're doing it because you truly love doing it, you know, so that there's that passion element of being committed to it and making sure that that's truly something that you enjoy doing. I don't have a bad day. I'll be honest with you. I enjoy my work every day. So it's like … and that's because I enjoy the work that I'm doing.
So … and the other thing, too, is also look for those opportunities, you know? Like, there's, there's opportunities around you all the time. So if you see a gap or you see something like, hey, maybe we can do it this way, or just start to question everything. Like, why have we never thought about doing it this way versus that way? And I found that just by asking questions, you know, you kind of find ways in which you can actually say, you know what, maybe this is an opportunity.
And then it's all about positioning. How do you position yourself so that you can actually fill that need? So I think there's a lot of opportunity in that space as well. And then, I know this sounds weird, but I'm always testing. So, I love to test things out there. So even though in my professional world, my world is around testing new technologies, new processes, new messaging, I also do testing in my personal hobby. So, I have a hobby with model trains. So I do model train designs and stuff. The same principles apply. In fact, I could do a test card on model train design because I'm basically trying different things. I put things on paper. I build out the tracks. I build out the sets, and I see what works. Some things don't work. And that's why I do a pivot. Just like I do a pivot and a test. And that has helped me as a person just kind of like, harness and build on those skills of just testing things out.
So it's kind of trying to find, like, a hobby or something that you enjoy doing and basically use the same processes. In my case, it's testing. It could be something else for someone else, but I think that's really important as well, is find the things that you love doing. And not every track layout that I do works out. I mean, that's why you pivot, but it's a … and have fun doing it.
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