From receiving help to leading the mission: A Salvation Army leader’s journey | RKD Group: Chat

Listen on Apple

Listen on Spotify

Nesan Kistan (00:00.536)

There's been two very key junctions where me personally and our family have intersected with the Salvation Army and both of them were moments of crisis. In fact, I remember my father saying it and he said, is what Christianity with the sleeves rolled up. At times the world shows the beauty of its humanity, but then there are times

when we forget about our humanity. And I think we all need to be chief reminding officers and remind people of who we are because under our skin we all bleed the same.

Nipa Eason (00:46.382)

Welcome to the RKD Group Chat podcast where we bring you behind the scenes of nonprofit life. We shed light on the compassion and purpose behind the individuals solving the world's most challenging problems. I'm your host, Nipa Eason, and today we're chatting with Major Nerson Kiston, the divisional commander at the Intermountain Division of the Salvation Army. It's such an inspirational conversation in so many ways. We talk about faith and humanity and running. And the quote I keep thinking about that Major Kiston shared from Muhammad Ali is,

Don't count the days, make the days count. Let's chat. Major Kiston, it's so great to talk with you today. Thank you so much for joining us. I typically like starting these, just hearing your background, because everyone comes into this type of work from very different perspectives and different directions. And I think your story is especially unique. And I would love to hear a little more about where you started out and

how you are now, where you're at with Salvation Army.

Nesan Kistan (01:49.8)

Nipa, it's a pleasure to be on this podcast. Let me tell you that I was so looking forward to chatting with you. Now you asked a really good question, background. mean, we all have different backgrounds, but I was born in South Africa in the midst of apartheid. I don't know how much you or your listeners would be aware of apartheid because that seems to be now ancient history, but apartheid was basically a political system that separated people based on their race.

It was an institution that unfortunately oppressed people. It in essence categorized people based on the color of their skin rather than the content of their character. So my family left apartheid South Africa looking for a better future. And we found ourselves in the beautiful continent of Australia. And my brother and myself and my mom and dad lived in Australia for

You know, most of our lives until probably about eight years ago when I made the transition to work for the Salvation Army here in the U.S. Now, interestingly enough, I was always working for the Salvation Army in Australia as well. I was the Salvation Army officer in Australia and then made the leap here to the U.S. So my background is really one that speaks to understanding what it is to struggle. My father was a strong

activists politically, socially, morally, and really was resisting a system that really oppressed people. So, know, fighting for those that are on the margins of life, fighting for those who are battlers is really part of the makeup of who I am today. You know, fighting for injustice, fighting for those that are suffering because of life circumstances.

has been a lot of the things that have been molded since being a child. And I can talk to you a little bit about growing up in apartheid South Africa and then in Australia and why I went into Salvation Army leadership, but that's just really the high level in a nutshell. I don't know if you want to go any deeper.

Nipa Eason (04:06.542)

We can in a little bit, but I did want to ask, because that was your first contact really with Salvation Army, right, in Australia when you got there, or was it zero than that?

Nesan Kistan (04:16.398)

Yeah, did not, our family did not know the Salvation Army until we arrived in Australia. And it was really, you know, in 81, 1981, there was a recession, global recession in fact. And, you know, my family were on the streets of Sydney. My father had been living in a motel and under the rules and regulations of apartheid South Africa, we weren't able to bring out any of our possessions or finances.

So we were very much limited. And so I think it was standing on the street of Sydney one day and a lady walked past because she could definitely sense that our family was struggling and said, do you know the Salvation Army can help you? That's the first time I think we heard the name Salvation Army. And so we walked to the local Salvation Army and the captain of that local Salvation Army didn't just help us. He showed us incredible love.

incredible acceptance and provided us with various practical resources we needed to get going again.

Nipa Eason (05:24.216)

Would you say that encountering them in such a pivotal formative time of your life has just increased your passion in your work with them as you've gone on?

Nesan Kistan (05:37.004)

Without a question, mean, there's been two very key junctions where me personally and our family have intersected with the Salvation Army. And both of them were moments of crisis. We had pretty well run out of our finances. And so yes, understanding an organization that doesn't discriminate based on who you are, what you look like, or where you've come from.

but just loving you unconditionally and supporting you. Absolutely, that is a motivator. That's a critical motivator. mean, not too many people, in fact, I remember my father saying it and he says, yeah, is what Christianity with the sleeves rolled up looks like. It was practical love. was practical acceptance. It wasn't just saying, hey brother, I love you, keep going.

God's got good things for you. wasn't faith just simply with words. It was faith in action. And I think that spoke volumes.

Nipa Eason (06:44.472)

Yeah, that's incredible. And it feels like that is how the Salvation Army continues to approach, just how they approach faith and action in general. Would you say that this continues to impact how you approach people that come to you for help? Maybe not you directly, but Salvation Army. Yeah. Yeah.

Nesan Kistan (07:08.834)

Well, I think of both. think it affects the way I respond to people. Our experiences and life journey plays a pivotal role in many ways, in how we react, how we respond, and how we see the world. know, many people see someone who's impoverished or someone who's homeless or someone who's a refugee, and then we put a label on them or we typecast them. And we say, well, they may not be educated. they sound different. So they may not be

educated or intelligent or capable. But often those are just far from truth and reality. Just because someone is down on their luck or someone has experienced some level of trauma or disadvantage, it doesn't mean they're less than. It doesn't mean they're inadequate. It doesn't mean they're silly or incompetent. It just means that life's journey has taken them down a path that has created some challenge for them.

So yes, how we respond and approach is critical. It's fundamentally what human beings have always done is looked after their neighbor in need. I mean, you think about what happened in the United States in the early years. Everyone knew their neighbor and their neighbor knew them. And if you needed something, your neighbor was there to help you. It's a beautiful, beautiful picture of what

Southern hospitality is what we now currently define. But it wasn't just Southern hospitality, it was hospitality that we extended across the board. And so yes, of course, seeing the Salvation Army bring Christ's hands in difficult moments absolutely has responded in the way or created a form the way in which I currently respond and how we continue. The Salvation Army has

Thank God it has never changed. From its missional mandate in 1865 with William and Catherine Booth, it's still the same Salvation Army, still caring, still supporting, still standing in the gap of those in need.

Nipa Eason (09:19.01)

That's incredible. And I love that because I think one of the things I think I heard in a video that you did an interview with, you said everyone matters. And that stands out to me so much with the message that you're saying even now that everyone, no matter what situation they come from, what background they have, no matter what they look like, everyone matters. And that idea of community and working together, that's so, that's...

Something I needed to hear, so I appreciate that.

Nesan Kistan (09:53.146)

Well, it's true, right? People matter. You know, the reality is we just finished Christmas, right? Christmas was a few weeks ago. We're in the new year. We're in 2026. And you know, I listened and I hear a of people forming a lot of descriptors of immigrants or refugees. My family were refugees in some way. We weren't refugees that were...

state-sponsored or refugees that migrated without following due process, but we were still refugees. And the picture of that is something that I've wrestled with in my own spirit, because if we really look deep down, Jesus was a refugee.

Nipa Eason (10:42.424)

Yeah.

Nesan Kistan (10:44.486)

Jesus had no place to lay his head. So he had to move from his hometown to Bethlehem. And that describes a really powerful image that in our world where we seem to have casted all of these shadows on those who are refugees, well, Jesus was a refugee. And in fact, when we read through the Scriptures, and even if you're not a person of faith,

You read through the scriptures, the Old and New Testament. It talks about creating a space for those without a home, those who are displaced, those that are alone, those who are orphaned, those who are widows. It speaks about what our responsibility as human beings should be. So when I hear people saying some awful things, I wonder the question is, why have we lost our humanity?

What are we afraid of? And I think the reason we lost our humanity is because we're afraid of what we don't understand and at times afraid of what we don't know. And I think for myself and as a Salvation Army officer, my response is not to be critical of those that say those things, but really to be a part of the process of how do we educate and how do we help people see a different picture.

Nipa Eason (12:14.774)

Yeah, it's a little bit of destigmatizing some of the messaging that's out there. How do you feel like the Salvation Army manages that? That destigmatization?

Nesan Kistan (12:32.65)

I'm not going to try it because I don't want to fumble it and make it, well, I could fumble and make you feel better. I think the thing that I will remind people within the Salvation Army and people outside the Salvation Army is that really where you're born has nothing to do with you. You don't choose where you're born. You don't choose your circumstances of life.

I would remind people that it is important to acknowledge that more than 80 % of the world is living in poverty.

20 % of the world live not because of any personal decisions they've made, live in Western society, which often is somewhat affluent and seem to enjoy 80 % of the world's riches. And this imbalance.

should actually challenge us to say, what can I do to help my neighbor? I I love the fact that we do help our neighbor when there is a earthquake or a hurricane or a natural disaster. Anywhere in the world, we'll send resources. We'll send support. At times, the world shows the beauty of its humanity. But then there are times when we forget about our humanity. And I think

We all need to be chief reminding officers and remind people of who we are because under our skin, we all bleed the same. We are people. We grieve with loss. We hurt with disappointment. We experiences all of the emotions of life. We're all very much more alike than we actually realize.

Nesan Kistan (14:32.408)

Just because we may sound differently or look a little bit differently because of which part of the continent we may originate from doesn't really make us different. We're still human beings.

Nipa Eason (14:45.164)

Yeah, 100%. I'm going to shift a little bit and go back to your background. in Australia, you studied political science. And I was really interested in how that has helped also in informing some of the ways that you're approaching your current position.

Nesan Kistan (15:05.972)

my goodness. listen, politics is about, I studied political science and psychology, so I have a joint degree. Politics is about studying of how human beings interact with each other. It's really about community, policy, community. How do we set rules, principles, systems of how we interact and how we create social interactions. where psychology is really about study of the individual.

So it's about the corporate and then the individual. And I think one of the things I've learned is, and really my degree in political science was really about political theory and political systems, looking really at liberty and looking at rights and looking at individual rights and corporate rights. And I think what I have learned through my study is that throughout the history of time,

Not a lot has changed. Throughout the history of time, we still struggle with the same issues and the same challenges. And we're still trying to understand how we can create systems so that we can operate and live under and function. People are not that different. History has taught us that. We still make the same mistakes we've always made. And so,

Yeah. I mean, it's a long time ago that I studied political science and psychology without telling you how old I am. I mean, you can see all the gray hairs and all. I mean, it's been a long time. But I think I would say is we're always learning. And if anything I've learned is by my studies is academia and academics teach you how to listen, how to think.

how to actually process information, how to be able to bring forward critical thought and critical reasoning. And I think that's the bigger picture of what I learned. I mean, I learned a lot of content and a lot of information, but what I think I love most about what my academic world or academic journey taught me was, is how to think, how to process information, how to think independently, how to robustly

Nesan Kistan (17:35.222)

filter what I'm learning. And I think it's so important in the world that we live today because we are bombarded with so much information. And I think our world is not short on information. We have more information and knowledge than we've ever had. I think the challenge is how to distill what is actually true and what isn't true. How to distill what is right and what isn't right. And being able to determine what is factual and what is just truly speculation.

and being able to have a compass to see that. Because I think one of the things is for this current generation is we haven't taught them enough how to think critically and independently. I think the way we teach these days is we don't teach people how to actually think logically and distill information, and I think that's a danger. I think it is because we look at how most information is

is engaged with and it's through social media. It's superficial learning. It's where you learn by 30 second reels or five second reels. And I think that is problematic.

Nipa Eason (18:48.352)

Yeah, I mean, that critical thinking piece is so important currently. I think one of the things that a lot of nonprofits currently have similar struggles where there's a perception out there about them and they have to try to combat that. So it's almost reactive in the way that they're approaching this. How do you feel like Salvation Army has kind of handled that? Because there are a lot of

almost myths about Salvation Army out there that you all have to respond to regularly. How do you break through that kind of critical thinking lens to help people understand the truth?

Nesan Kistan (19:30.158)

Well, I think it's doing what we're doing right now. It's communication. I think the more we tell our story, the better awareness people have. And then the opportunity then leads to better forms of engagement. I think for any organization, including organizations like the Salvation Army, we've got to use the modern media as much as I'm critical of how social media operates and unfortunately provides only superficial information.

We need to also be smart enough to go, it is a channel of communication that we need to use. So we need to be on all the platforms and we need to tell our story over and over again. I think also, you know, is about finding the right stakeholders to join us in that journey as well. Finding those influences. The power of influence can never be underestimated. There are people out there that are really

have a lot of influence based on who they are and what they say. Being able to actually build on that collateral, it was interesting when I watched the way the last political campaign was done. An interesting facet was that less and less of the political candidates spend time on mainstream media.

Most of the time was communicated through major podcasts or through various strong social media platforms. I think the world is changing and shifting again. And now with AI, I think it's causing us or calling us to once again reinvent ourselves. I think the challenge for lots of nonprofits is that we are fundamentally stuck.

with systems and operations we've always done. The greatest challenge to success in this new era and this new season is staying bound to practices and systems that we've always used and found some elements of success. Those elements of success in the past, I believe have the potential to undermine us finding a new success in a new era.

Nipa Eason (21:54.386)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The media mix has changed quite drastically in the last few years, for sure. Do you feel like, I know Salvation Army is approaching that head on, right? Like, you are on all the platforms, you are doing digital fundraising, and you are approaching younger donors, too. How have you been finding success with that?

Nesan Kistan (22:19.852)

I think candidly we haven't had great success with it is because we as a movement, like many of our other nonprofit friends and colleagues, have been stuck with the boomer generation. So yeah, we do do some digital and we do do some trying to connect with the younger generation, but I don't think we do it well enough because I think we have a divided

positioning our resources. So for instance, we still, largest financial investment in terms of marketing, terms of engagement, is still with the boomer generation. Whereas if we are truly to make the shift, would require us to reallocate resources. And I think we're often afraid of it. Because it goes back to my earlier point. When you had success with one approach,

You're going to try and use that same approach for as long as you can. And the classic example I use is what you saw with Kodak. Now, you probably don't remember who Kodak was. I remember Kodak. You remember Kodak. Fantastic. Well, here's the interesting thing about Kodak. We know Kodak no longer exists, but we do know that Kodak had digital technology that they sat on because they didn't think the market was ready for it. Right.

And they say, well, we're just going to go with print and we're to just go with the way we've always done things because that works for us. And I think that example illustrates the fact that I think nonprofits, we know that AI, I mean, we're not at no longer in the digital age, we're in the AI age. And I think we're still struggling to get up to date with the digital age, which is sad.

But the way forward for an organization like the Salvation Army is a leap past the digital stuff and simply embrace AI and not just generative AI. I think we need to embrace agentic AI, which is the current way of how our world is starting to operate and manage and systems are moving towards.

Nipa Eason (24:38.262)

Yeah, completely agree. I think that is the direction that we're all going for sure. And I appreciate you being so honest and candid about it, because it is a hard challenge that nonprofits have right now is how do we draw in younger donors? How do we draw in a demographic that we typically haven't had as much success with?

Nesan Kistan (25:01.966)

would say it's not just younger donors. I would say it's even those donors that are part of Gen Y, Gen X. I think what it is is it's not so much targeting a demographic. It's targeting how people have redefined the way they operate. People are no longer loyal to brands. People are now more motivated by calls.

This call speaks to me. speaks to whether it's the environment, whether it's technology, whatever it may be. I think we need to pivot and go, okay, I need to be more cause focused and cause aware and then target that demographic, which could be broad or could be small.

Nipa Eason (25:54.318)

So this is the kind of a, it's the question I ask everyone and I always get this answer like, my days are always so different, but what is a typical day like for you?

Nesan Kistan (26:07.822)

My typical day is, and I try to make sure that there are four key components in each of my days. I tell you, my days start and finish the same way. And I think that gives me some level of context and gives me some level of stability. Because our days are so unstable these days. So, I start the morning with time with God and I spend at least 30 minutes just and that in

It reflection, meditation, really trying to build fresh new insight. And I believe God's Word gives me fresh insight. And then I go for a run, and generally that's between six to 10 miles a day. It depends on what my training program for the day is. And then I get into the office and I get through the process of doing the things. And generally I would say is I generally try to be a coaching leader.

So I'm meeting with people, I'm talking strategy, I'm meeting with donors, or I'm meeting with staff members and colleagues and helping them be more strategic in how they process it. And then my day ends with make sure that I have time for family, time to connect with my wife and my children. And I think by having those two elements as my cornerstones to my day.

it allows my day to be productive.

Nipa Eason (27:36.962)

you run six to 10 miles a day that I run too. I used to run six to 10 miles a day. It's dropped a little bit because, know, life things happen, but any advice for runners out there to run six to 10 miles a day?

Nesan Kistan (27:51.854)

I got plenty of advice around it. I've run 21 marathons. I've run about 200 halves. And my advice to runners is consistency, consistency, consistency. So I run and the real insight I've discovered over the years is you've got to run slow to run fast. So my slow days are about six miles and just slow, easy recovery runs. And then the mid two to Tuesdays and Thursdays,

And my high intense workouts and they're about they're eight miles eight to 10 some days, sometimes depending where I am in my training cycle. And then my, my, my weekends, Saturday is always a long run. It's always anywhere between 12 to 16 miles.

Nipa Eason (28:35.598)

That's incredible. That consistency piece is, I think, applies to almost anything in life too, right? Not just running, yeah.

Nesan Kistan (28:44.128)

It's consistency, it's discipline, it's intentionality. And those are the principles that probably gives me an edge, so to speak, because I'm tenacious. See, endurance runners, one of the things I love about endurance racing is it teaches you how to push through when it gets difficult. It teaches you how to push through when life is hard. And I think that's the key because that builds resilience.

And so many people, even in the nonprofit world, we can very easily give up when things get challenging. And I say, you know what? You got to keep pressing through, because when you press through is when you get your victory.

Nipa Eason (29:26.094)

That's beautiful. You know, yeah, like I said, I've dropped a little bit, but it's coming back. Just one marathon, but. I ran the Disney one.

Nesan Kistan (29:38.926)

Which marathon did you run?

Although I don't count those as marathons.

Nipa Eason (29:44.608)

I mean, I ran the whole thing.

Nesan Kistan (29:48.93)

I ran a Disney half in California, in Anaheim, through Disneyland. And when I first started running it, I'm looking around at all these people and they're stopping every couple of and taking photos. And I go, what's going on here? Is this a tourist? And then I realized Disney marathons are to be enjoyed. And I go, okay. It's not a race, it's to be enjoyed.

Nipa Eason (30:01.614)

I know.

Nipa Eason (30:12.193)

It's not a race.

Nesan Kistan (30:15.559)

And once I realized that, go, okay, I'll stop, take a picture, say hello, do the thing. yeah.

Nipa Eason (30:21.868)

Yeah, it was fun. It was a nice first time, right? Except that, you know, they make you wake up at like two in the morning. But other than that.

Nesan Kistan (30:29.486)

That's tough. when's the next one?

Nipa Eason (30:32.328)

I don't know. It's gonna be a bit, I think. you know, I have just like life and things that I'm handling right now, but maybe in the next couple years I will aim for another one.

Nesan Kistan (30:45.582)

listen, don't wait that long. Here's my encouragement to you. Life is always going to be challenging and complex. There's never going to be a perfect time in life. And I say to people this often is when you're looking for perfect conditions, then you will never stop looking. I run whether it's snowing outside, whether it's hail, rain, wind, whatever.

And the reason I do that is because when I'm facing a crisis, it's never going to be when I'm comfortable. It's going to be at any time. And often a crisis comes when there's other challenges already breaking out around me. So I say to people, don't wait. Don't wait. In fact, as I'm getting older, I'm recognizing there's less years in front of me than the ones behind me. And so Muhammad Ali said, and I love it.

and I've used it as a motivation for 2026. Muhammad Ali said, I'm not going to count the days, but I'm going to make the days count.

Nesan Kistan (31:56.194)

And that is all about life. Don't count the days and just try, I'm gonna wait till this day. I'm gonna wait till this vacation. I'm gonna wait till this point. No, no, no. Even the hard days, make them count.

Nipa Eason (32:14.178)

Thank you so much, Major Kiston. This was such a great conversation and I really appreciate your honesty and sharing your story and just the way that you embrace your position and the way that Salvation Army approaches the people that need help. It's just refreshing and really nice to hear, especially in a time like what we're in right now.

Nesan Kistan (32:39.8)

Yes. You what's interesting? I remind you of this? good friend just reminded me about it maybe six or seven months ago. He said to me, because I said, how are you dealing with all the things that are happening right now? He's a federal court judge. I said, how are you going on with all the stuff that's happening in the world around us? He says, we've always had difficult times.

We've always had challenging times. We've always had moments of crisis. This time will come, but this time will also go." And he said, we've always also, he said something really profound to me. goes, you know, you're too young, he said to me. You don't realize we had the Vietnam War. And we thought, when will this time ever end? We saw men, women coming home.

draped with our flag on their coffins. When will this time end?" He said, we saw the devastation of World War II. You're too young. But we saw what happened in Nazi Germany. We saw the tanks go through into Belgium and Brussels, and we saw all of those things take place. We saw what happened and he goes, well.

We never thought that time would end either, but it did. So he says, be optimistic, be courageous, be true to who you are. The times, they never last forever. They're only just seasons that we walk through. And it's true. Life is just full of seasons.

Nipa Eason (34:28.257)

Yeah, well thank you so much. What an inspiring chat. Here are three takeaways I got from our chat with Major Kiston that I would take back to my nonprofit and to my life in general. One, everyone matters. It doesn't matter where they come from, what they look like, and what they've gone through. We all need to be our own chief reminding officers and remind ourselves of ours and everyone's humanity. Two,

We need to be open to new ways of communicating and move past some of the older methods that have given us success in the past. We need to embrace the uncertainty and new ways of communicating with our donors and our communities. Three, and as a runner, Major Kiston emphasizes the need for consistency, both in running and in life. We never know what conditions and challenges that we'll be dealing with. And we have to have the resilience and the discipline

to press on, which requires consistency. If we're looking for the perfect conditions, we'll never stop looking. Want to chat with us? Email us at connect@rkdgroup.com. I hope I hear back from you. Either way, I'll chat with you next month.