Chief fundraising officer calls on nonprofit leaders to embrace curiosity over fear | RKD Group: Thinkers

Justin McCord (00:02.284) 

All right, Kim, I just learned something about you that I didn't know and I have to start there. 

Okay, I'm excited. don't think I even heard this because we were talking about it before Ronnie jumped on. You're the youngest. We're not the youngest, but you are one of seven and you are number six out of seven. I am as I joke. I'm at the bottom of the barrel. I'm between the youngest boy and the youngest girl. It was super fun growing up in a big family. You learn to get along, right? And I think that's in part how I fell into working in the nonprofit sector as well. 

Book the light. 

I get the learning how to get along with people part, but like I had to connect the dots for us there. Yeah, yeah. Prepare you and or was there a direct connection from your family into the sector? Total direct collection connection. My parents were both avid volunteers in many capacities and for me I started out as a candy striper in middle school at a local nursing home and so when you're in a big family you have to care. 

for a lot of people too, right? And you get to see so much of humans interacting through the good and bad times. And so, you know, I've just learned a lot about compassion. I learned a lot about people. I learned about negotiation and the art of getting along at a very young age, but also just through my parents and their amazing, you know, example that they set for us from a very young age. 

Kimberly O’Donnell (01:43.349) 

And also, just watching a family of seven and seeing my parents put philanthropy as a priority in their lives and in our lives said a lot to me. As one of seven and the sixth of seven. 

What was it like trying to find your place in the pecking order, I guess, a little bit and trying to assert who you were that stands out from the group? Yeah, yeah. Well, we were joking earlier that you just really need to be loud. And so when when our family gets together and spouses and partners and kids are all there, you know, inevitably somebody will say to me later on, wow, you all are so loud. And it's like, well, that's how you learned how to be heard. 

And and I grew up never being called, you know, my name can relate right like that my family called me Kimmy but But I just answered to anything. So now I'm always just delighted when someone gets my name, right? I'm they are calling me by my name, know, not Kathy Chris Colleen's, you know, so sometimes Mike So it was just a lot of what I thought you both were gonna say as you 

I learned something about both of you and I want to connect the dots a little bit. So did the both of you work for the Dallas Morning News? that where you were? That's correct. So I saw that and my very small but very impactful connection from my life was through a former, think he was an associate editor. His name was Richard Estrada and he passed away like I think maybe 19, 

1999 2000 ish but he Really impacted my life because I started my career working for bike by Partisan congressional commission. It's called the Commission on immigration reform. So we were looking at immigration policy this also kind of Pushed me into the sector as well just being able to understand what it's like to be a new person in America and The acculturation that goes through all of that. Well, anyways Richard Estrada 

Kimberly O’Donnell (03:58.481) 

who was an associate editor for the Dallas Morning News was one of our commissioners. And so it was just really cool to see that. Small world moment. Small world. And I just was so, he was such a presence and so he was an amazing writer, probably the best writer I've ever seen in my life. And just the things that he would put out were really, really interesting and very thought provoking. 

And Barbara Jordan was the commission chair at the time. And so if you were connected at all to Texas, those who are viewing this would know that she was our first black congresswoman from the state of Texas. She was active during the Watergate hearings. And there is the Barbara Jordan terminal in Austin, Texas, where she had long been a she taught at UT Austin law. 

just such an amazing, remarc at the earliest point her as a chair was just was all these other incredib were appointed by Congress impact. That's the thing about and looking at your we all have those people that speak into our lives 

Justin McCord (05:28.418) 

from the outside looking in, like you were incredibly blessed at some of the people and their level of passion or compassion that they were probably likely modeling for you as you started your career. 

all of us coming out of school, typically bright-eyed and bush-tailed, ready to tackle the world, and then you're actually surrounded by people who are tackling the world. What was that like? 

It was incredible and I knew I was there to learn and observe and I just felt so fortunate. I got an internship with the Commission during my last semester and there was another gentleman who was also interning. He had already graduated and they came to us as this period was ending. I was going to graduate. was graduating in December. I graduated early and they said, look, we have one 

available and you can apply for it but we have to post it to everyone else and so I applied for it I think 250 people applied for it and it's not to say that I'm great I just feel like I was very fortunate that they selected me for that role and everyone who worked there was on detail from different agencies so we had representatives from the State Department from Health and Human Services you know from all these different places and so I was able to see 

at the starting point of my career, what it was like to, one, work in the government, work with these different agencies, really think about a social issue such as immigration, which continues to be a hot button topic in this day and age. also, so my job, I was helping plan public hearings around the country. So I was able to set up events at Ellis Island, and we did a memorial service for Barb Jordan at the Kennedy Center, like all these amazing places. 

Kimberly O’Donnell (07:30.224) 

I was able to go and tour and you know plan the meetings and I also helped with media and then I also helped write some of the briefing papers and some of the final documents so So it was it was incredible now at the time I thought I wanted to go into politics And so this was also just a great starting point for me what I learned Was that I didn't necessarily want to go into politics. I wanted to go into people 

I wanted to work in the social good sector and make a difference and my next job was well it all started because I went to a volunteer center and I said hey I want to start volunteering I'm working at this job you know what what opportunities do you have for me and the executive director of the volunteer center said well you know what we are starting a new development committee do you think you'd want to do that and 

So I thought about it and I really took it seriously. Like I was applying for a job or something. I was like, what do I want to do with my volunteer time? And I joined this development committee and my gosh, did it take off? Like I loved it. I am still friends with some of the people that were on that committee almost 30 years ago, 20 some years ago. And it really changed my life because I ended up becoming the executive director of the volunteer center. Yeah, that's awesome. 

It's a fascinating transition and you said something and I want to come back to it because You know Kimberly there are there are listeners of ours who don't know what life looked like in the 90s and what life looked like in terms of applying for a job in the 90s and And you said, know, you're one of a couple hundred of folks that had applied 

What did applying for a job look like in the early to mid 90s? 

Kimberly O’Donnell (09:30.352) 

How nice was the paper that your resume was on? Exactly. You had to very good stock paper. Yes, you you had to type that sucker up and they had to look at it. We didn't have spell check back in that day. I don't think. Like it was way, way. We didn't even have the internet at that time. It was just getting started. And email was just getting started. So you would mail those suckers in. You tried to mail them in. Yes, we would mail them We snail mailed them in. Yes. 

and you'd wait and wait and wait. Nothing was like, there was no receipt that they received your resume. So it was hard. I I think about it in this day and age where you really, you look at how hard it is now for college graduates to find jobs and sending it out. And now with AI, AI is gonna, the screening tools that exist to screen your resume, to just get it through the process can be so arduous. 

Yeah, it used to be you apply and wait and maybe you'd get a letter back in the day like, thank you. But I feel like even in this day and age, it's equally as long and daunting. It is a different kind of crazy. mean, you you said one of 250 now you're competing against thousands of people who are just sending them digitally. And like you said, screened by AI, you have no idea if you make it through the screening. Yeah, it's a wild process. 

It's never been more important the idea of it's not what you know, but who you know like the who you know matters so much at this point to break through the clutter of some of those things Totally, but I also want to encourage folks to not feel daunted I mean to put themselves out there so I will tell you something that I tried You know with a marketing hat on so I thought well. Hey, I'm just going to be a resume That's going to go through here, so you went back to the paper quality. I went out and I got 

this really cool bright orange paper and it was almost translucent you could see through it it was it was beautiful and I started printing my resume on this orange piece of paper because I was like well that's gonna stand out I'll tell you what I could not get an interview with that orange paper so you know as wild and you gotta try things you gotta put yourself out there and that is a big piece of advice I would give throughout my career you just got to do it but yeah the orange paper didn't orange paper 

Kimberly O’Donnell (11:59.856) 

Unless you were in the Netherlands like if you were applying for something in the Netherlands because of their difficulty for orange then maybe Maybe was just your stack of orange papers. Yes. Well, it might have worked in this day and age What is the movie that is out right now? We're in orange pink ball ball, right? Marty supreme. Yep, Marty supreme. So it might have gotten some some relevance here now I would love to I would love for someone to attempt that application process 

us now. Like, let's mail some nice paper and see what happens as a test. Yeah, we know that there is far less snail mail that is going to people nowadays. that might, but you would have to, I mean, they would have to be in their office, right? got to up, you to your research. physically get it to them, but you do have a better chance of it getting through for sure. So you moved from the 

government politics side into, you know, into this executive director role of volunteer Alexandria and then from there the marketing fundraising development side starts to take off. Was that a series of intentional decisions or was it a series of like opportunities and doors that naturally happened? 

Good question. would say, I would say mix of both. I am a curious person. I just want to learn new things. And so, you know, it's funny. There are people who want to be highly skilled and they go into a job with, you know, extreme knowledge. You would want your doctor to be that way. For me, I feel like you could just give me a role and I'll figure it out. I'm going to get in there and I'm going to figure it out. And I love tackling something new. And so that was... 

really my career trajectory was, wow, this sounds neat. Let's get in there. Wow, let's do this. So I was pretty scared. I became an executive director of a nonprofit at age, I think I was like 25, or maybe I just turned 26. It felt young. All of the people that reported to me were older than I was, right? I'm now responsible for fundraising. I've got to lead this organization. And as a volunteer center, you're connected to literally hundreds of organizations. 

Kimberly O’Donnell (14:24.849) 

So I just stepped into, I had some mentors who said, you can do this, we've got your back. two executive directors had endorsed me and were helping me. And so I felt like I was well supported. And then from there, it just was, all right, well, I want to go get my graduate degree. I know about nonprofits now. And at the time, they didn't have a nonprofit management certificate or anything. So I went and got a master's in business technology. 

right when that was coming out. And so I was the first class at my school. And so I did that because I just wanted to learn more about IT and where technology, where business and technology were going to go. And so from there, I stayed in the sector, but working with organizations who had large memberships, either of charities who were directly involved 

with philanthropy or who then moving into nonprofit tech, who were working sort of at the cutting edge of new for the sector and innovation for the sector. And I loved that. And so to circle back to how did you get into marketing and fundraising and all of that, I believe that sales, marketing, and fundraising are all the same skills. You're use all the same skill sets. I would argue that 

fundraising is more chall you you're not gett as a result. Um, but you' more. And so, so I is something that is intuit people, but when they hea you've got to get something you you've got to r not going to get back anyt return. I think that's 

Kimberly O’Donnell (16:24.505) 

much more in return than any physical thing could potentially give them. I want to come back to you just mentioned that this idea of being curious and how that's that's sort of driven you into different roles. 

If we fast forward from volunteer Alexandra to today, what are you curious about? What's what's the next thing that's driving you right now? I am fascinated with the times today. How about you all? mean, I just I am I am sitting on the edge of my seat. This is a transformational period in our sector, and I can't wait to see what what is next. You know, I'd be remiss to say that AI wasn't driving a huge amount of this. 

and the federal funding changes and the administration. So there's a lot of fear that is out there around where fundraising is going and where just funding in general and where organizations are going. But what I would say is we're a really resilient sector. We've gotten through so many other times and if we could just change our mindset from fear to excitement about what is next, boy, there is so much more that we can do. 

said on the edge of my seat wondering about how we can do more better, how we can deliver more impact in ways that are very strategic and purposeful, and how we can make a nonprofit leader, a nonprofit marketer, a nonprofit fundraiser, maybe even our donors, our supporters, all of our lives. 

better and easier as we go. And when I say that, mean, not making it just so hard to do so many things. What do you think is at the root of that? 

Kimberly O’Donnell (18:17.173) 

acting in fear or leading in fear. What do you think? What are the driving forces that that sit there? Yeah, there's been a ton of research on it. So folks can go. But I would say at the core, to answer your question is that fund rate and nonprofit folks are afraid of misusing those precious dollars. Now, one, it's the donor dollar. So you're so worried about that. But the other part is that we're just afraid of misusing those 

dollars because we know that they're scarce any organization would probably tell you that they could use more money for whatever they want to do so there's always a feeling that we don't have enough your scarcity factor and then to it's just that we're gonna do something wrong now there that is not how it operates in on the other side in the for-profit world like you are you are motivated to take risks you know that you have to your investors want you 

to, but here on the nonprofit side, we're afraid of it. And so one of the things that I often will advise folks to do is to set up an innovation fund. Talk with your board, set up an innovation fund, let it be known to the world that you have this innovation fund for testing and learning new things. And then get out there and test and learn and A-B it. A-B it, see it, like go for it. And what I think can happen, what I've heard is that organizations, employees, 

You know, your nonprofit staffers can then feel more empowered to try new things. They can come, they can apply for some of the funds from the Innovation Fund, right? Like, you can report back to your board and your donors how you're using these Innovation Funds. By the way, very savvy donors would probably want to invest in your Innovation Fund because they know that you are stepping out of the box and you're gonna try new things. So then, where we have been, where folks have been operating in this world of scarcity and fear, 

You're then empowered and you are financed to go out and try, try, try and learn. That's so well said. Yeah, the scarcity mindset, it can really hold you back. And I love the idea of creating an innovation fund so it's known that failure can happen and it's not. 

Ronnie Richard (20:44.495) 

It's not a penalty, it's not a bad thing. We know there's a chance and a risk at this. Going back to the idea of AI and that fear and uncertainty around it, Bonterra, you just came out with a report about AI readiness. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about, as you dug into that, some of these ideas, what were some things that stood out in that report? And maybe what was the biggest takeaway you got from 

Yeah, so some of the things from our from Bontaris AI readiness report were around folks comfort with using AI. People now know that they should be using AI. It is the future and over the last year there's been a huge uptick in use. We do have some stats that we can share with you on usage and how people are feeling about it. But what I would say 

is that they don't always know how to use it. I know that I need to exercise, but I don't know which of the things in the gym, you know, I should be using to... 

you know, get bigger muscles versus a leaner body, right? Like, so folks are now testing and learning as they go to figure out how to use AI more expertly. What they, what Bontara did last year is we actually launched the first agentic AI platform for the nonprofit sector. We call it Q and it's QUE, kind of a play off of, what is that show? What is the famous, Doctor Who, 

help me here. James Bond. Bond. Yes. So it's a play off of James Bond. I just I love that you said Doctor Who. Like I don't want to lose the fact that you said Doctor Who somewhere in there because that speaks to me and many other listeners that there are other Whovians. So I'm sorry. Go ahead. I totally. 

Kimberly O’Donnell (22:52.526) 

I'm back from my holiday break and I'm like, my brain, my brain needs to work a little faster. But I will say Q is so cool because Q is working behind the scenes to help nonprofit marketers and fundraisers do more with a base of knowledge. So what Q can do within our platform is it's able to segment donors for you. It can draft communications for you. It can help you think around what your next ask amounts will be. 

to have a human in the loop and that's a big thing within Bontera. We know that the future of AI depends on humans being in the loop. Keeping an eye on it, right? Reviewing it, not just arbitrarily sending things out. Beginning to train your AI tools to have your voice, to be able to show the impact that you're making. All of those things are critical. You've got the human in the loop. But what it's also doing is it's bringing a coach in with you. So I lead a team 

of fundraising and engage are working across the co nonprofits. These are hum nonprofits around strategi more strategically, how t strategically, how to inc They may be working with t say to major donors or wh look like. And so as we b had a team of our expert 

have literally worked with hundreds and hundreds of nonprofits and collectively thousands. And we had them help train our tool. And so not only did we have the best developers working across seven time zones, building queue, and we had all of these different, we have our product expertise. We actually had fundraisers who were in their training and helping our product team really build an agent, an AI agent that is 

extremely strategic and can help organizations make a difference from the first time that they use it. I think a part of the, for me a part of the antidote to scarcity is curiosity. And I believe that 

Justin McCord (25:12.932) 

the right path with any AI application comes with a strong dose of curiosity because it does come down to like. 

thinking about how to use something and drawing off of the experiences to your point of others that have maybe walked a couple of steps in front of you around that. And so I love that you have that application, but to me, it just, draws back to something that you said earlier, just in terms of your natural bent towards curiosity. And so the, I'm curious. 

The, to what extent you think of curiosity as a muscle within leaders or not, and as a leader yourself, how, what kind of work do you have to do to stay curious? Is it innate within you, Kimberly, or is that something that is something that there is like a series of things that you do to stay in that mode? 

Yeah, yeah, great question. I love this because I'm actually a certified coach and you keep on asking me questions. I'm like, oh, that's a great question. And usually, and that's one of those little triggers as a coach. When someone says that back to you, you're like, oh, I'm getting to the good stuff. So thank you. You're really having me be in perspective. Curiosity is there. to take it over to AI. 

What I would say is we are all learning with AI and you can quickly get up to speed and surpass your peers at this point in time because AI has been around for a period of time, Like Bontair actually began using AI in our tools in 2017. So it's been around and you could say, well, we have all of this experience, which we do. But I would also say you can catch up quickly because there are tools out there that will help you catch up quickly. 

Justin McCord (27:21.714) 

What? 

With anything with any bit of learning there's two pieces to it, right? There's a curiosity and then there's the consistency How are you training yourself? To be curious, but also always be learning. you know What are you doing that's helping to enrich the work that you are doing as a leader? And I don't care if you've been a leader at an organization the same organization for 25 years or two years it doesn't matter because 

It's where you are right now. 

The presence is what matters. And right now is a period of great transformation within our sector. And so I encourage and I challenge everyone who is listening to this today to step out and begin learning something new this year in 2026. There is nothing holding you back except for yourself. And so try and shake that off and begin that curiosity process. Now, some of that is by doing creating discipline every day. I'm going to spend a half an hour 

doing X every single day. Look, when I wanted to get healthy about, I don't know, probably almost 10 years ago now, I told myself I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna walk every day. I don't care how much I walk outside. It might be 10 minutes, it might be 45, and I'll tell you what, I've been walking every single day since. So it's creating that muscle, whatever muscle it is that you want. You just gotta do it. And you just create that time and you force yourself a little. 

Justin McCord (28:54.7) 

One thing I've noticed about people who are driven by curiosity is that they often pick up fun, different hobbies and things always trying to occupy themselves with things. So what is it that besides walking, as you just mentioned, what do do when you're not. 

you know, in the office mode and work mode, what do do for fun or just to scratch that curious itch? Yeah, yeah. So I have to laugh because if you had asked me five years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago, I would be asked that question and in my head, I mean, I give a good answer, but I also was like, hobbies. I am a single mom with a career and I 

I'm trying to do my very best at these two things. 

I don't have a lot of hobbies other than like making sure my house is clean and seeing my family and calling family, right? Like just existing. My children are now in college and so my hobbies are going to see them and being present in their lives, right? My son plays lacrosse so I want to go see them, my daughter and they're in different states. They're pretty far away. So it's intentionally being there for them. 

up and and so I love that. I mean I could tell you I love stand-up paddleboarding. I love you know going to breweries and listening to live music and I love all of that but I would say my biggest hobby right now is finding 

Kimberly O’Donnell (30:36.048) 

quiet, peaceful, focused time for myself, little bit of home renovation, and you know, with my partner, right? But really trying to get to my core being and that great sense of peace that I know I can have. It's not a balancing act. As a single mom, a career woman, everything you hear, oh, you got to balance it. The balance, the 50-50, I just never found existed. 

What I do find today is that I can be very present and intentional in how I live. And I only have so much more time one-on-one with my kids, right, before they go off and they have their own careers. So I'm gonna put the phone down, I'm gonna put the work down. And this past Sunday, I was at the Steelers-Ravens game with my son, and I focused on that moment. 

How about you all? How are you finding your intentional moments? 

I think precisely where Ronnie and I both find ourselves now. I'm a half step behind you, so I've got two high schoolers. Ronnie is a half step behind me because he's got one high schooler, one middle schooler, it is the same thing. It is, you you find ways to occupy yourself, but basically the same way that I think curiosity can be a superpower. think intentionality can be a superpower and and it's one that or super 

muscle. And so I think being intentional with the time with those around you is exactly what this life is about. And I think it makes you a better spouse. It makes you a better partner. It makes you a better parent. It makes you a better leader. The more that you try to be intentional with those around you, not to the point of sucking the air out of every room, by the way, like that's there is a line like it goes to 

Kimberly O’Donnell (32:37.724) 

far, but but finding to, to, know, allow yourself to be, interrupted by your kiddos or by your friends. you know, if it's 11 o'clock and that's what time my oldest wants to unpack his day. 

I've got to work myself up for it, but it's worth it every time. And so I think intentionality as a super muscle is something that I find myself more and more trying to focus on. 

I learned a big lesson. My daughter was a cheerleader in high school and I thought I was being like so savvy. I had my laptop on my lap, you know, at a game and I'm working and I'm watching the game and I'm working and I'm watching the game. All great because I'm there. I am present. And then later on that night, my daughter was like, Mom, all. 

teammates were asking wh with their laptop open the head down breaking away. missed her fifth birthday a conference speaking rig those things and and I cer and I um and I see it. I year and then I did not do something to her. It might 

was five she had a very happy birthday but she will point that out to me at you know age 19 now that I'm mr. fifth birthday and so those are the things that you just learned along the way and we make mistakes we make mistakes we make mistakes as people and so I think another part about intention that inch intention oh can I say it today intentionality and curiosity curiosity is also the fail fast or at least 

Kimberly O’Donnell (34:42.066) 

and reflect on your learnings. Don't beat yourself up over it, but truly think about what's important. And we can carry that over from our personal lives and our hobbies and our loves, but we can absolutely carry it over to the work that we do. And in this day and age, in 2026, now more than ever, we need to be focused on some core things. One, upscaling, not just ourselves, but our teams on AI and the real practical ways that you can use it. 

that continuing to hone that muscle and there are ways and strategies that you can do it as managers. That's one. Two, it's just testing new fundraising tactics because there are plenty of those things. Ben Miller and I did a session which we called More Than AI. I think it was at AFP this past year around all the other things that you can do beyond AI right now to up your fundraising and marketing game. So there's that. But there's just, there's so much that you can be focusing on right now. 

how to help your workforce, your teams, really feel connected to your purpose and become more high performing. There are some great tactics for that as well. Because you can have all the tools in the world and still not be a high performing team. And that exists within many organizations. You could say, well, they're a new organization and they're just going to start. No, no, no, no, no. Then you got these very, very 

What's the word I'm thinking of? Just very large charities, tenure charities, big name charities that are also struggling with some of the same challenges. They're very hierarchical. They need to cut through some of the red tape. They need to test and learn more. They need to really come together as departments cross-functionally. to just kind of circle or put a point on that is it's about learning and adopting 

and going for it, right? Going for it. Kimberly, I don't know if I can think of a better way to wrap up this episode than that. mean, let's go. Intentionality and I love the idea of you kind of grabbing this torch and saying follow me and let's go for it. So thanks for spending time with us and sharing your thoughts with us. 

Kimberly O’Donnell (37:09.588) 

Thank you. Thank you. Best wishes as we just tackle 2026. It's going to be an amazing year. And it can be an amazing year for all of your viewers too. Just step into it and take it a step at a time with that curiosity.